The End of Good ol' d+d

[IceBear]

Whoops....my bad....I didn't mean leveling, I meant classes

This is why most experts in my game have different class specifics than the one in the DMG (little to no BAB progression, Saves, etc). That also means I can "wing" a +10 bonus on his Bluff skill (if it seems reasonable) without it seeming odd.

Thus, in my world, if I want an expert tailor, he's not going to have the side-effect of being able to kill a 5th level fighter in one on one combat

IceBear

 

[Kichwas]

So what?

Split the XP needed to level in half?

For half that XP track hit points, BAB, Ref and Fort, and the class abilities.

For the other half track skills, feats, and Will.

For ever 8 levels (combining the two tracks) you have you get a stat point.

Sor if you're 4 class, 4 skill, that's a stat point. But if you're 1 class, 7 skill that's also a stat point.

Let players choose which track to spend XP on?

That might work but it's more bother than I need.

 

[IceBear]

What are you talking about??? Just seems like you think I have a problem with the NPC classes, I don't really.

The last few posts were just nonsense about the affects of classes making tailors into killing machines.

This thread has to do with whether or not 3E is harder to DM than 2nd Edition. In my case, I was just referring to the fact that for most non-central NPCs (a shopkeeper, blacksmit, etc) I can pretty much decided what relevant skills they would have on the fly without much work. If an NPC is central to the story, then I would spend the time to flesh him out - exactly as I did in 2nd Edition.

IceBear

 

[Doctor Doom]

I don't like 3E anymore. I think it has too many rules, and the rules are intertwined such that it is difficult to make effective house rules without disrupting the precarious 'balance' of the system.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

I don't like 3E anymore. I think it has too many rules, and the rules are intertwined such that it is difficult to make effective house rules without disrupting the precarious 'balance' of the system.

I honestly never thought about this point before today... But it is completely true. The reason I'm finding this out more and more is because I'm trying to determine which feats I will allow in my upcoming campaign, which, after a few sessions, will be taken over (DM'ed) by a guy who doesn't know the rules that well, but really wants to DM.

The feats from the PHB are too few, and somewhat boring. But the feats from the Splatbooks are so uneven... some suck, while others are overpowered. Feats have made the game more balanced away from wizards and mages, but they have also become a balance issue unto themselves.

Overall, I'm glad we have them, but I really wish someone would give a list I thought comprised a balanced set of feats to use in a game. If anyone knows of one, I'd appreciate a link...

Most lists (i.e., the NetBook of Feats) are too huge to even consider using. Players would find a loophole.

 

[IceBear]

I go with the attitude that all spells and feats, etc from an official source are open for use(more or less).

Then if a PC wants to take a feat from a splatbook, I make a decision then. If the player has an excellent roleplay reason for taking it then that's points in his favour. If he doesn't and it's a really questionably balanced feat odds are I won't allow it.

This is really much the same as the kits and equipment, etc from the Complete Handbook of X in 2nd Edition. Again, it's nothing new or different.

IceBear

 

[Quickbeam]

I love 3E's flexibility, and any excessive powergaming or min/maxing it inspires is more than mitigated by the fact it's not 2E!! I hated 2E, and I'm glad it's gone...but I digress.

Our group limits the external resources available for additional feats, spells, skills, etc. as a means of controlling excessive min/maxing. Along with that, we play a very diverse campaign so that it's ultimately impossible to be hugely effective in every situation. Characters designed to rule the day as combat machines are less effective in diplomatic scenarios, and scholarly smooth-talkers tend to fare less well when confronted with challenging foes wielding brute force and numbers.

 

[kenjib]

Yes, knejib, but why would older people be better at attacking things, or have more hit points? If anything, younger folks would be better at those. In general.

As has been pointed out by a couple of others, this is a different issue. I agree that the NPC classes were poorly thought out. Removing BaB, hit point, and save progressions from some of the NPC classes would probably mostly fix it.

On topic though, I agree that it is harder to tweak 3e without unforeseen repercussions. Removing the tactical complexity of combat in favor of something much more quick and simple, for example, is a bit daunting. I remember a discussion in the past where many people disagreed strongly with me though.

 

[Pielorinho]

I think 3E is easy to customize in some ways, but not in others.

On the one hand, I now have a mechanism for making a giant insect illusionist: just take the stats for a thri-keen and slap a few levels of illusionist onto it. I can make it an infernal critter if Iwant.

On the other hand, now that I have this mechanism, I feel compelled to use it. In 2E, I didn't really have a mechanism to do this - so I faked it. I'd just grab the stats for a tri-keen, grab the stats for an illusionist, and smush the two together. If I wanted it to be a fiendish giant insect illusionist, I'd come up with some cool devilish power and slap them on top of my creation.

And it took me less time to do it in 2E than in 3E, because there was no "right" way to do it, and so I didn't feel obligated to look through the rules for the correct way to do it.

Next session, I plan to run a fairly complicated scene with some fairly complicated characters in it. I wasn't sufficiently prepared to run this scene last session, so I added in some off-the-cuff scenes that built another story arc.

These off-the-cuff scenes were non-combat. Generally, I find non-combat scenes easier to adjudicate now: the social skills, even if I don't call for rolls, give me a nice framework in which to judge NPC reactions and PC observations.

3E requires a lot of prepwork to handle combat scenes, in my experience, but not nearly as much to handle noncombat scenes. Interestingly, I find that some of my best scenes are therefore noncombat: because I'm more comfortable improvising in such scenes, I'm more responsive to my players' actions, and I can devote more attention to cool spectacles and events instead of to resolving the amount of cover (or is it concealment?) granted to the character crouching at the base of a cliff behind a scrubby tree.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

3E requires a lot of prepwork to handle combat scenes, in my experience, but not nearly as much to handle noncombat scenes. Interestingly, I find that some of my best scenes are therefore noncombat: because I'm more comfortable improvising in such scenes, I'm more responsive to my players' actions, and I can devote more attention to cool spectacles and events instead of to resolving the amount of cover (or is it concealment?) granted to the character crouching at the base of a cliff behind a scrubby tree.

I do not understand this feeling of obligation to use a template.

You can choose to go back to your old technique. Your only requirement is to be fair when you calculate the xp. You are not obliged to use any formula when deciding what the CR of the opponent is going to be.

I would suggest reading the relavent templates before ignoring them. More because it will help you capture the feel standard material, but it is not a bad thing to misremember and keep your players guessing.

Your players will be very proud when they figure out your thri-keen is casting illusions. More so when they guess that it is surviving those fireballs because it is half-fiendish. You do not have to inform them it is really quite thorougly infernal but you forgot a nifty power. As long as you give them fair xp in the end, who can complain?

All these templates are just good ideas with fairly well thought through rules for execution. Once you have seen Yuan-ti and Half-Yuan-ti and Half-Fiend, it should not be difficult for you to cook up a template for Half-Kuatoan and a sea village with a terrible secret.

Don't worry. No one will peek over your shoulder and check your addition.