The End of Good ol' d+d

nemmerle said:
Seems unduly complicated

Yes, it does. Especially considering that according to the DMG, a vast majority of commoners are 1st level. Age doesn't matter one whit (well it might matter, but I wouldn't make progression automatic by age.) Only exceptional commoners will be above first level. So unless you want the leatherworker to be exceptional, assume he is a first level commoner, assign him 1-4 ranks in any relevant skills (1-2 if cross class), and maybe throw in a -1 to +1 stat modifier on a few stats.
 
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adndgamer said:
I enjoyed DMing on the fly, not having to remember huge stat blocks for creatures, just the nice, simple stats that earlier editions had.

As I said in the previous thread about NPC Stats, I STILL DM this way. Why can't you? Our group size has ranged during that time from 4 to 13 players, and we have been having fun for two years now, with no loss of "balance" from not having NPC sheets properly statted and done.

I have direct first-hand reports that many DM's playtested 3rd edition without benefit of a Monster Manual!

What problems Specifically have you run into?
 

sfgiants said:
...My main issues are the focus of the game. Balance becomes so pervasive that we constantly hear how a spell is "broken" or "unbalanced." Prior to 3e I never knew that the word "broken" can be applied to a game. In the last two years I have heard more about how "broken" the ranger is, and why anyone would play a bard...


Actually, they were around just as much as now - ever look at the rec.game.frp.dnd newsgroups from 1996 to 1999? Thieves were broken and useless because of mages, harm was spoken as being broken even back them by some, Psionics were busted, and few DMs allowed it in their campaigns, and the Skills and powers supplement was regarded by many as a "munchkin's Paradise." The basic rules were somewhat balanced, but quite boring. Balance was preserved to the point of strangulation of new ideas. However, under 2E, we STILL had talk on r.g.f.d. about how dominant Mages and specialist wizards were above 10th level - it was MORE so then than now.


...for the most part players of 3e...want all the classes to be balanced solely by combat/abilities (and if you look at the classes abilities 95% of them have combat applications...). If not, they aren't worth playing...


Now, many detractors have a serious problem - they do not weigh the skill system as being worth anything to a character. Many people who underestimate the existing ranger discount its skill bonuses, they discount the skill bonuses of druids, barbarians, and others for whom skills are meant to be a worthwhile addition. Noncombat is as important as combat, but now that there are solid rules for noncombat interactions, the big hue and cry is that "roleplaying is dead." Quite the contrary, roleplaying is enforced now. No CHA 8, Diplomacy -1 fighter is going to spur an army through a rousing speech, or is going to get a discounted purchase. Before, There was no harm in social interactions for playing such. Now, it's a DM's pride and joy to watch a verbally savvy player (who dumped all social interactions to make a combat monster) try to speak to the local stable boy to find out where the best place is to buy a good sword. :D

Finally I have definately noticed that aspects of classes are even more entrenched now than they were before. Sure there are lots of options, but many of them aren't reall options at all. I point to such situations as the FRCS Spellcasting Prodigy feat. No spell caster ever goes with it anymore. How silly is that?


Quite silly, for your players. They honestly don't know which way the wind is blowing on that point, do they? What good is that extra +1 to DC and extra 1st level spell going to do them if they go last in a combat? How is it going to help them when they miss attacking with that ray spell by 1 point? How good will it do when they get knocked to -2 hit points? I'm not saying S.C.P. is a great feat, but its merits and drawbacks have been debated MANY times on our D&D Rules Forums, and its value does not outshine all other feats at 1st level. Its value is staggered over several levels, and this while making it worthwhile, does not make it the end-all and be-all of feats.


I guess my main gripe is that when sitting down to a game and choosing a character, I bring up bard and get "why would anyone play that?" Maybe I just miss games where playing a bard wasn't a debate as to whether it is broken or two weak. But, I still love 3e, as a player. I don't have to settle silly disputes, I can start 'em. :)

Rules disputes are fun - and thanks to the virtue of the internet, we gamers have more of them now than we ever did. But as for the "why would anyone play a bard or ranger" disputes, you have to concede that these people who argue such are likely the ones who only see worth in combat solutions. The fact that a Bard can know every language known, or that the ranger can be the best equipped for survival on a frozen plain, or that a prepared druid can decimate a non-magical combatant, eludes them, as there is no worth in it if it doesn't stack with magical armor and weapons.

I am sorry if the game has been killed by bad experiences for you, but our group has had no problem adapting to and enjoying 3E, and we enjoy it with the same zeal as we enjoyed 1E and 2E. Now, none of us can contemplate going back, because of 20/20 hindsight over a set of very confusing and restrictive set of rules.
 

Henry said:


Now, many detractors have a serious problem - they do not weigh the skill system as being worth anything to a character. Many people who underestimate the existing ranger discount its skill bonuses, they discount the skill bonuses of druids, barbarians, and others for whom skills are meant to be a worthwhile addition. Noncombat is as important as combat, but now that there are solid rules for noncombat interactions, the big hue and cry is that "roleplaying is dead." Quite the contrary, roleplaying is enforced now. No CHA 8, Diplomacy -1 fighter is going to spur an army through a rousing speech, or is going to get a discounted purchase. Before, There was no harm in social interactions for playing such. Now, it's a DM's pride and joy to watch a verbally savvy player (who dumped all social interactions to make a combat monster) try to speak to the local stable boy to find out where the best place is to buy a good sword. :D


This is so true. Too many detractors of the game measure whether a class is broken by whether it can win in a stand-up fight. Another irony is that the people whom I've met in real life who cry the loudest about min/maxing are the very ones who do it! "The game is broken! My dual-wielding, greataxe using half-orc with 28 strength and Whirlwind Attack is unstoppable!" Then ensues a long, detailed run-down of every combat feat, skill, and bonus the character has, and a tactical briefing on how the character enters into combat. Simply telling such a player "well, then, as DM I'd have the character get involved in more roleplaying situations" is answered by vague dismissals of the idea, as if it can't happen or isn't important if it did. Believe me, I'd make damned sure that roleplaying scenarios were very common, especially for such a character. The game is about challenges, and what better challenges than those that exploit the characters' weaknesses?
 


Orcus said:
The real problem is too many Pokemon/Magic players playing D&D.

The words "broken" and "balance" are so MtG it is annoying.

3E is no harder to DM than 2E or 1E or OD&D, and I've played them all extensively. In fact, 3E has a standardized rule for just about every situation, which earlier editions didnt. So it is in fact easier on DMs.

Dont worry so much about stats. Just play.

On the fly any moron DM can say the guards are War2s with +2 attacks and longswords. Or thieves are Rog3s with max skills of +6 to +8. Just wing it. It isnt hard.

If you have players that say "hey, that guard should have +2 to attack not +3" you need to send that player home.

This thread sounds more like DM inexperience than an actual comparison of editions.

Clark

You should have more respect for your elders, boy. Maybe you just aren't a very good DM, don't tar us all with your brush. Some people like to do a good job, and "winging it" is not usually a very good job, it is a sign of lack of preparation or thought. If you like being unprepared and don't think much of your players, that's your business, but don't talk down to those of us who DO put work and thought into what we do.

Maybe your players like shallowness, but it is unattractive to many of us. Good luck with your "extensive" experiences...just showing up doesn't make you an expert, it just means you were there. But you must be perfect, and we are all inexperienced DM's, and you are an expert because you played a few games...
 

the Jester said:
To prep major npcs and things like that, I think it does take longer in 3e... especially if you're adding templates and class levels to a monster (it takes longer to stat out a 9th-level otyugh wizard with the half-slaad template than it does to stat out a 12th-level fighter, cuz you have to go back and add things on, flip back and forth through your books, etc.)


First Jester I know what I'm about to say isn't really germaine to your point but I just wanted to use what you said here to illustrate mine ;)

I have always found it amusing that DMs who say 3E is more difficult to 'wing it' often trot out examples like the one provided by Jester here.

The amusing part is that in previous editions there was no way to create such things. An Otyugh Wizard? Shee-yah right! That ain't possible DM boy! Not 'round here in 2nd ed (or 1st ed)country! Now if you want something like this (and who wouldn't ;) ) you have the rules to do it and only need the time to put it together.

Frankly if I thought of something like this halfway through a session and it would provide the best climax to the session I would work it out during 'DM off time' when the players are working on plans to overcome the lastest obstacle. And I have made up things a lot more complex than this (though not as neat sounding :) ) in the space of 30 minutes with the players none the wiser that the final showdown was written while they discussed how to get by the gas filled pit trap!
 

Oracular Vision said:


You should have more respect for your elders, boy. Maybe you just aren't a very good DM, don't tar us all with your brush. Some people like to do a good job, and "winging it" is not usually a very good job, it is a sign of lack of preparation or thought. If you like being unprepared and don't think much of your players, that's your business, but don't talk down to those of us who DO put work and thought into what we do.

Maybe your players like shallowness, but it is unattractive to many of us. Good luck with your "extensive" experiences...just showing up doesn't make you an expert, it just means you were there. But you must be perfect, and we are all inexperienced DM's, and you are an expert because you played a few games...

That's a pompous and insulting post Oracular Vision. Berating a person because they can DM with less preperation than you is pathetic. Lose the snarky attitude and maybe I could take your position more seriously until then....:p
 

Turn down the heat a smidge, folks, or I'll have to take this particular kettle off the stove. Or something.

In my experience it has been very hard for me to "wing it" in 3E. And I do chalk that up to 3E inexperience, relative to my 1E/2E experience. As soon as I've played 3E for 20 years I'm sure I'll get better at it.
 

Oracular Vision:


Given who Orcus is, that "played a few games" is actually 20+ years of experience running D&D talking. When he says "First Edition Feel," he means it. :)

Seriously, no one is bashing DMs who like to prepare ahead of time - Clark Peterson in fact makes his living off of helping DM's be better prepared! It is better to be prepared than not be, but this advice has been around since Gary Gygax rolled up his first NPC.

However, I also feel that too much is being made out of how much 3E is non-conducive to runnning low-prep games. Why is it that many people feel that 3E CANNOT be run well without every NPC, every monster, and every trap statted out in full? There are dozens of posters on this site alone that offer contrary evidence to this.

Eric Noah's point hit it well - no one on this Earth has had more than 4 or so years of experience running a 3E game. Experience is the best teacher of the game, and with familiarity comes running games with less prep time.
 

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