The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

[delericho]

Never played 4E is true, but I have about 3 feet of 4E books on the shelf, and I did read the core rulebooks because I was going to DM the thing. As I've said before the rules themselves are solid and an improvement over 3.5E, but the presentation is lacking imho. And I've read more attractive/interesting technical manuals then the 4E PHB to be honest.

Then I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience to properly judge the system. 4e plays very differently from how it reads. The complexity comes in tracking the ever-changing conditions, saves and power recharges - which isn't clear from reading the books.

You are correct that 4e is more resilient to additions that 3e - adding more options has a much less drastic effect on how the game plays, and especially with the DDI it is easier to keep track of everything. This is a very good thing, since 4e is also much more in need of expansion beyond the PHB/DMG/MM trio than 3e.

But 4e is most definitely a complex game. Even at 1st level there's a lot to track, and it quickly goes up from there.

Note that that is not necessarily a criticism. If you like the sort of tactical combat mini-game that 4e offers, then it is the very best of the market for doing that. Conversely, if you don't like that, and especially if you don't like using minis, then you're almost certainly better off with a different system, rather than trying to hack 4e. It is what it is.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Then I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience to properly judge the system. 4e plays very differently from how it reads. The complexity comes in tracking the ever-changing conditions, saves and power recharges - which isn't clear from reading the books.

You are correct that 4e is more resilient to additions that 3e - adding more options has a much less drastic effect on how the game plays, and especially with the DDI it is easier to keep track of everything. This is a very good thing, since 4e is also much more in need of expansion beyond the PHB/DMG/MM trio than 3e.

But 4e is most definitely a complex game. Even at 1st level there's a lot to track, and it quickly goes up from there.

Note that that is not necessarily a criticism. If you like the sort of tactical combat mini-game that 4e offers, then it is the very best of the market for doing that. Conversely, if you don't like that, and especially if you don't like using minis, then you're almost certainly better off with a different system, rather than trying to hack 4e. It is what it is.

I find this interesting. I haven't played the game, and avoid edition wars stuff if I can, but I clearly remember that this isn't how the game was sold. Remember the "The Game Remains" promotional video, about how complex 3rd ed was and how fast moving 4th ed would be? I'm surprised to hear now that 4th ed is complex in its own way. I'd love to know more about how this was all intended to work, compared to how it actually works.

 

[billd91]

Then I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience to properly judge the system. 4e plays very differently from how it reads. The complexity comes in tracking the ever-changing conditions, saves and power recharges - which isn't clear from reading the books.

That's certainly not a ringing endorsement. My experience is that it plays worse than it reads, thanks, in large part, to tracking ever changing conditions, saves, power recharges, and temporary hit points. By the time you hit about 15th level or so, I find it to be a royal pain.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Good stuff! (Out of XP for now. I'll have to owe you one for this fine example of the noncombat focus of early D&D.)

I have trouble attributing this to the system though. I've played BD&D/1E games that were nothing but combat. And I just ran an encounter with a group of ogres this past weekend in my WLD 4E game that didn't result in combat. The interaction at the table IME has always come from the person running the game, not the game itself. To me it is like people are trying to assign human qualities to a set of books. Every game is more or less combat focused as the group playing chooses.

 

[Herschel]

Remember the "The Game Remains" promotional video, about how complex 3rd ed was and how fast moving 4th ed would be? I'm surprised to hear now that 4th ed is complex in its own way. I'd love to know more about how this was all intended to work, compared to how it actually works.

Over-simplifying a bit but 4E is more complex in-encounter, 3E is more complex pre-encounter. Where in 3E you might scry, see you'll be facing the Red Wyrm, get together fire resistances and other postions/spells, pull Dragonslayer Sword from golf bag, spend time before entering the room buffing, etc. where in 4E you go in to the fight and after a bit the Cleric gets dazed while in the dragon's aura, the fighters is also in the aura, has marked the dragon, is bloodied and both are in the blast radius of the Wizard's All Creatures In Burst Daily Spell so tactics have to be adjusted on the fly.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Maybe, but here's the video, in case anyone's forgotten:

Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: Teaser - YouTube

I have to admit, I'd forgotten how annoying and condescending that video was till I just looked it up. It was the first warning sign for me that I was not going to be switching editions.

 

[DaveMage]

Ah, yes. The video that started the anger.

Good times.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Maybe, but here's the video, in case anyone's forgotten:

Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: Teaser - YouTube

I have to admit, I'd forgotten how annoying and condescending that video was till I just looked it up. It was the first warning sign for me that I was not going to be switching editions.

That's an official marketing video by WotC!?!?!

 

[Flatus Maximus]

"But zee game will remain zee same!"

 

[TarionzCousin]

Less distibutors and less game stores == a shrinking market.

Fewer.

Regardless of our opinions, it is a rarity to have an informed, elaborate opinion on this topic. I think one of the reasons we are scratching and clawing over it is because there are so few articles/op-eds like this.