The Fallen Blackguard

[Alzrius]

Can we drop the D&D groupthink for just a minute please? Yeesh.

The blackguard is basically the epitome of the champion of evil. Darth Vader, in archetypal terms, is a blackguard. Forget the fact that he doesn't cast spells, uses a lightsaber, and breathes funny; he's a champion of big-E Evil, representing all that the heroes are fighting against. That is what a blackguard is, after you strip away all the D&D tropes that have been drilled into you.

The exact relationship between a blackguard and the cosmos is something that is up to individual DMs to decide. While YOU may think of blackguards as holy warriors, there is nothing about the underlying archetype that requires it. Vader himself is a classic example of a champion of evil who has no divine ties whatsoever.

And if this webfic was about Darth Vader, you'd have a great point; but it isn't. Basically, there's no reason not to assume this is a D&D-style setting. Why not? Everything about what was posted above smacks of it, down to the deities who interfere in mortal lives. Nothing Gez said gave any reason to assume this was anything other than a D&D-type blackguard.

Yeesh.

 

[hong]

And if this webfic was about Darth Vader, you'd have a great point; but it isn't. Basically, there's no reason not to assume this is a D&D-style setting.

How about the fact that nowhere does it mention anything about D&D?

Why not? Everything about what was posted above smacks of it,

Because the sum total of fantasy is D&D, apparently. Have you spent the last 30 years in a Skinner box in Gary Gygax's basement or something?

down to the deities who interfere in mortal lives. Nothing Gez said gave any reason to assume this was anything other than a D&D-type blackguard.

1. Define a "D&D-type blackguard" and what the heck it has to do with your original point. Because nothing about the blackguard's class mechanics mandate anything you said; that has everything to do with campaign-specific assumptions and I'll thank you not to blithely assume everyone plays D&D the way you do.

2. Do you commonly assume any random fantasy story must follow D&D tropes unless explicitly proven otherwise?

 

[Derulbaskul]

I like the idea but I'm also a big fan of the whole theme of redemption (it makes a nice change from revenge).

Do you remember a 2E Dungeon adventure where an amnesiac former anti-paladin is discovered by the PCs? IIRC, the PCs' goal was to try and ensure that he would continue on the path of righteousness rather than turning back to evil. Quite a good adventure, actually, from Dungeon's glory days.

 

[Particle_Man]

Blackguard's prereq's just say "make peaceful contact with an evil outsider". Doesn't say anything about specifically championing an evil god, anymore than a paladin has to specifically champion a good god.

So, if the evil outsider in question gets killed, this could leave the Blackguard as easy pickings for the Good god.

Or maybe things really changed in your world, and some twink characters managed to kill an evil god, so all its blackguards are left twisting in the wind.

There are options, even in by-the-book D&D.

 

[Alzrius]

Wow, okay, first let's get rid of all the obfuscation *throws out 90% of the above post* Now, for the remaining valid point:

Do you commonly assume any random fantasy story must follow D&D tropes unless explicitly proven otherwise?

When it's posted in a D&D/d20 style forum, and asked for opinions, then yes, I do. It's certainly not as blase as, say, attacking someone else's post just because you don't agree, while offering nothing constructive.

Blackguard's prereq's just say "make peaceful contact with an evil outsider". Doesn't say anything about specifically championing an evil god, anymore than a paladin has to specifically champion a good god.

True, but those divine spells have to come from somewhere, and honestly, it's just easier to make the relatively small assumption that it's from a deity.

In any event, both of you are ignoring the spirit of my original answer by focusing on the letter of the mechanics: the premise is weak because it basically smacks of deus ex machina. Sure Markus eventually gets to enjoy being a do-gooder, but the only reason he started on that was because a god made him do it. That doesn't make for a very moving or sympathetic character. Being forced to do something begets no emotional sympathy from the reader; nor is it thought-provoking or insightful about the character himself - the way the story stands now takes away from the characterization by using a deity, denying what could otherwise be a very insightful character study.

 

[hong]

Wow, okay, first let's get rid of all the obfuscation *throws out 90% of the above post*

Well, perhaps I should put it back in, because I am such a generous soul:

Define a "D&D-type blackguard" and what the heck it has to do with your original point. Because nothing about the blackguard's class mechanics mandate anything you said; that has everything to do with campaign-specific assumptions and I'll thank you not to blithely assume everyone plays D&D the way you do.

When it's posted in a D&D/d20 style forum, and asked for opinions, then yes, I do. It's certainly not as blase as, say, attacking someone else's post just because you don't agree, while offering nothing constructive.

I offered plenty that was constructive. Have you?

True, but those divine spells have to come from somewhere, and honestly, it's just easier to make the relatively small assumption that it's from a deity.

Consider broadening your horizons. It's surprisingly easy, even if you want to keep your PHB and DMG with you.

 

[hong]

In any event, both of you are ignoring the spirit of my original answer by focusing on the letter of the mechanics:

Nonsense.

the premise is weak because it basically smacks of deus ex machina.

Do you even know what "deus ex machina" means?

Sure Markus eventually gets to enjoy being a do-gooder, but the only reason he started on that was because a god made him do it. That doesn't make for a very moving or sympathetic character. Being forced to do something begets no emotional sympathy from the reader;

The character is not forced to do anything that's relevant to the point of the story. Read it again.

 

[Alzrius]

Again, first we have to dispense with the finger-pointing childishness.

I offered plenty that was constructive. Have you?

This from the guy who blithely ignored my entire last paragraph.

Consider broadening your horizons. It's surprisingly easy, even if you want to keep your PHB and DMG with you.

Wow, I was just about to say the same thing to you about politeness!

 

[Alzrius]

Nonsense.

Indeed, most of your point was nonsense! We agree!

Do you even know what "deus ex machina" means?

Apparently better than you, since I addressed it correctly.

The character is not forced to do anything that's relevant to the point of the story. Read it again.

Apparently, you need to read it again. The entire crux of the story is that Hegan decides Markus can be "redeemed" or spend his eternity in agony - which is no real choice at all. Deus ex Machina. The character has no real say, and a god makes his decision for him, heck, the story even says Markus is "broken" when he agrees.

 

[hong]

Again, first we have to dispense with the finger-pointing childishness.

Well, I'll just put it back in again:

Define a "D&D-type blackguard" and what the heck it has to do with your original point. Because nothing about the blackguard's class mechanics mandate anything you said; that has everything to do with campaign-specific assumptions and I'll thank you not to blithely assume everyone plays D&D the way you do.

This from the guy who blithely ignored my entire last paragraph.

Your entire last paragraph was based on unsubstantiated assumptions, and therefore ignorable.

Wow, I was just about to say the same thing to you about politeness!

Morrus has dibs on my sig at the moment, thankyouverymuch.