The Fallen Blackguard

[hong]

Indeed, most of your point was nonsense! We agree!

Hello. Please not to STEAL MY SCHTICK.

Apparently better than you, since I addressed it correctly.

Did you now?

Apparently, you need to read it again. The entire crux of the story is that Hegan decides Markus can be "redeemed" or spend his eternity in agony - which is no real choice at all.

You have a fascinating ability to determine the crux of a story based on its first paragraph. Do they hire you to write Cliff's notes?

Deus ex Machina. The character has no real say, and a god makes his decision for him, heck, the story even says Markus is "broken" when he agrees.

The character has plenty of real say _in events subsequent to the first encounter_, and it is these events that determine his eventual outcome. You know, I have seen many people who, when reading a book, flip right to the last chapter. You must be the first who flips right to the first chapter.

 

[Alzrius]

Well, I'll just put it back in again:

And I'll ignore it again. I addressed this already, and restating your point won't make it any more valid than it did when I answered that the first time around.

Your entire last paragraph was based on unsubstantiated assumptions, and therefore ignorable.

There's nothing unsubstantiated about it. The story was full of deus ex machina, and that was the real point I was addressing (admittedly by way of pointing out why it shouldnt have happened from an in-campaign point of view).

Morrus has dibs on my sig at the moment, thankyouverymuch.

I made my Sleight of Hand roll. (Gasp! a D&D reference!)

 

[jgbrowning]

Ladies and Gentlemen.... Welcome to WHEN KITTENS ATTACK 2004

In this corner, reeking of cuteness we present Alzrius, the east coast terror!..... this fierce kitten weighs in just under 1 pound, but don't let that distract you! He packs a vicious claw/claw/bite attack..

And in the opposing corner, also reeking of cuteness we present Hong, the thunder from down under! Known throughout the world for being beaten with a stick, his claw/claw/bite attack is supported by all 1.1 pounds of feline mass!

Are you ready to RUUUUUUMMMMMBBBLLLLLEEEEEEEEE?!?!?!?!

joe b.

 

[Alzrius]

Hello. Please not to STEAL MY SCHTICK.

What can I say, I couldn't help but schtick it to ya.

Did you now?

Indeed I did!

You have a fascinating ability to determine the crux of a story based on its first paragraph. Do they hire you to write Cliff's notes?

Fourth and Fifth paragraphs actually. And heavens no, if they did it wouldn't be "Cliff's".

The character has plenty of real say _in events subsequent to the first encounter_, and it is these events that determine his eventual outcome. You know, I have seen many people who, when reading a book, flip right to the last chapter. You must be the first who flips right to the first chapter.

That's not the point though. The central theme of this sort of "character redemption" story is what made the character want to stop being evil and become a good guy to begin with, and this story simply doesn't have that. Change, especially such a massive change, is hard to undertake, compared to just sticking with the course you're already on.

 

[Alzrius]

Ladies and Gentlemen.... Welcome to WHEN KITTENS ATTACK 2004

In this corner, reeking of cuteness we present Alzrius, the east coast terror!..... this fierce kitten weighs in just under 1 pound, but don't let that distract you! He packs a vicious claw/claw/bite attack..

And in the opposing corner, also reeking of cuteness we present Hong, the thunder from down under! Known throughout the world for being beaten with a stick, his claw/claw/bite attack is supported by all 1.1 pounds of feline mass!

Are you ready to RUUUUUUMMMMMBBBLLLLLEEEEEEEEE?!?!?!?!

ROFL! I didn't notice Hong's avatar until I read this, and now it's conjuring up the greatest imagery!

 

[hong]

And I'll ignore it again. I addressed this already, and restating your point won't make it any more valid than it did when I answered that the first time around.

You haven't answered it, kiddo. It helps, when attempting to dissemble, to ensure the evidence is actually out of sight. So here it is again, by the wonders of cut-and-paste:

Define a "D&D-type blackguard" and what the heck it has to do with your original point. Because nothing about the blackguard's class mechanics mandate anything you said; that has everything to do with campaign-specific assumptions and I'll thank you not to blithely assume everyone plays D&D the way you do.

And here is what YOU said: "Blackguards, like paladins, are holy warriors, just for evil deities." As a statement of bald fact, this is demonstrably false. Do you intend to show otherwise?

There's nothing unsubstantiated about it. The story was full of deus ex machina,

The only deuses around are those floating in your teacup, as far as I can tell.

and that was the real point I was addressing (admittedly by way of pointing out why it shouldnt have happened from an in-campaign point of view).

Oh really? And where, pray tell, do you gain such vast store of knowledge of the intimate details of the "campaign" in question, namely its cosmology, its deities, the relationships of its warriors to their gods, and so on? It might not be that you really are relying on unsubstantiated assumptions after all?

I made my Sleight of Hand roll. (Gasp! a D&D reference!)

I call it a botched Spot check.

 

[hong]

What can I say, I couldn't help but schtick it to ya.

The first rule is to be funny.

Be! Funny!

Indeed I did!

Orwell's Big Brother managed to get away with this. You, however, are no Big Brother.

That's not the point though. The central theme of this sort of "character redemption" story is what made the character want to stop being evil and become a good guy to begin with, and this story simply doesn't have that.

This ability of yours to define the point in a way orthogonal to the author's intent, and to most other readers' assumptions, is truly remarkable. It is entirely clear to anyone who could grasp elementary English (or French) that the theme of this story is that redemption is possible for even the most wicked. They may need a bit of prodding, but ultimately it's within even their grasp.

Change, especially such a massive change, is hard to undertake, compared to just sticking with the course you're already on.

You have somehow failed to notice that the change that was undertaken was, in fact, by the character's own doing. The only divine intervention carried out was right at the start. How many times are you going to botch your Spot roll?

 

[Alzrius]

You haven't answered it, kiddo. It helps, when attempting to dissemble, to ensure the evidence is actually out of sight. So here it is again, by the wonders of cut-and-paste:

Define a "D&D-type blackguard" and what the heck it has to do with your original point. Because nothing about the blackguard's class mechanics mandate anything you said; that has everything to do with campaign-specific assumptions and I'll thank you not to blithely assume everyone plays D&D the way you do.

And I answered that, "kiddo". Maybe I could have phrased it better, but I did. A D&D-type Blackguard is the one in the DMG, obviously. What it has to do with my original point is that there's no reason not to assume that this is a D&D setting, and the blackguard would have an evil god (or, admittedly, a fiend) as a patron/advisor/boss, whatever. The point is, he would have had some otherwordly assistance, who would have had interest in Markus there maintaining his blackguard-ness.

The only deuses around are those floating in your teacup, as far as I can tell.

I drink gods in my tea!

Seriously though, that is deus ex machina in the story. That's not something that can be disputed, because it is a fact.

Oh really? And where, pray tell, do you gain such vast store of knowledge of the intimate details of the "campaign" in question, namely its cosmology, its deities, the relationships of its warriors to their gods, and so on? It might not be that you really are relying on unsubstantiated assumptions after all?

Boy, you weren't paying attention at all, were you? I was pointing out options, not restrictions. To reiterate, I was pointing out possible reasons why it shouldn't have happened that way; that's not working within the realm of the author's story, that's just my posting my opinions, which, if you recall, was what Gez wanted to begin with.

I call it a botched Spot check.

Only because you failed your Intelligence check.

 

[hong]

And I answered that, "kiddo". Maybe I could have phrased it better, but I did. A D&D-type Blackguard is the one in the DMG, obviously. What it has to do with my original point is that there's no reason not to assume that this is a D&D setting,

You know, most normal people do not need big flashing neon signs and arrows and diagrams pointing out "THIS IS NOT A D&D SETTING" to proceed on that basis. Particularly when the work in question is from an outside source with no known link to D&D.

 

[Alzrius]

The first rule is to be funny.

Be! Funny!

Thanks! Nothing lightens a debate from being a flame war like a good joke.

You, however, are no Big Brother.

Tell that to my kid brother.

It is entirely clear to anyone who could grasp elementary English (or French) that the theme of this story is that redemption is possible for even the most wicked. They may need a bit of prodding, but ultimately it's within even their grasp.

Which is exactly my point - the story doesn't explore this at all, and that's why the premise is weak.

You have somehow failed to notice that the change that was undertaken was, in fact, by the character's own doing. The only divine intervention carried out was right at the start. How many times are you going to botch your Spot roll?

How many times are you going to fail your Intelligence check?

The character found he liked being good, but only long since after he was made to be good at the proverbial sword-point. That takes away from the characterization of why the change was made in the first place. No soul-searching, no internal questioning, just "I changed my alignment because a god said to, and I found it wasn't half-bad!"