The Fallen Blackguard

[ruemere]

[..]
That aside, the assumption is perfectly warranted; as I said, there was nothing to discourage such an assumption (heck, there still isn't!).

Unbelievable.
From the very start Alzrius managed to ignore all Hong's points (and queries).

FYI, the stubborness of Alzrius apparent ignorance... oh, there was no rebuking any significant points by Hong, but I am willing to give the A-Kitten benefit of doubt - hence the use of "apparent"... anyway, the sheer will required to carry on with dodging all Hong questions is unbelievable.

Ah, the bittersweet taste of nostalgia from days of .advocacy...

Anyway, for the benefit of all:

- "deus ex machina"
(quoting Merriam Webster online) "2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty"

Point goes to Hong. As everyone can see there is no Deus ex Machina in the story, merely a somewhat expectable deity intervention somewhere in the beginning.

- Alzrius: "Cool. That changes the context - and had it been clear that he was some sort of militant atheist, I'd have said differently; since that changes the tone of the entire story."

This is General RPG Discussion. The only thing changed are unwarranted assumptions, like assigning d20 qualities to Blackguard term or assigning nonexistent prestige class prerequisites to Blackguard prestige class or overinterpreting core rules of d20 on divine spellcasters (what deities are listed as granting divine spells to Druids in the core rulebooks?).

Point awarded to Hong.

- Alzrius: "I'm making the apparently safe assumption, based on the text given, that there's no reason to say this world would be different."
- Alzrius (a bit earlier): "And if this webfic was about Darth Vader, you'd have a great point; but it isn't. Basically, there's no reason not to assume this is a D&D-style setting. Why not? Everything about what was posted above smacks of it, down to the deities who interfere in mortal lives. Nothing Gez said gave any reason to assume this was anything other than a D&D-type blackguard."

This is not how the logic works. I'm rather glad to say but these statement are very easily falsified and as such are a little... to put it nicely... lacking in value.

Point awarded to Hong.

Round one ends here as the rest of this discussion is rather repetitive.

Alzrius:Hong​

0:3​

Regards,
Ruemere
PS. I'm always amazed how it is easy for the people to defy reason because they cannot seem to acknowledge that they may have been wrong.

 

[Gez]

Keep cool, everyone.

I used the term blackguard because it's convenient. In the aforementionned source, it's never used. (Of course, since it's in French. Heh.)

The character filled most of the blackguard's archetype: a strong, evil warrior who revels in his badness (rather than using some sort of moral relativism to convince himself he's a hero).

What I found interesting in that character concept was twofold:
1. The fallen blackguard aspect, by opposition to the fare more common archetype of the fallen paladin; and
2. That the redemption was forced on him, rather than coming from him, or persuaded through pretty talks. It's quite an interesting twist, because the mean used (torture and coercion) is at odd, one could say even contradictory, with the end pursued.

 

[Darkness]

Right, let's turn down the heat 'a little', guys and keetooms. Thanks.

- Darkness,
Moderator

 

[Alzrius]

"deus ex machina"
(quoting Merriam Webster online) "2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty"

Point goes to Hong. As everyone can see there is no Deus ex Machina in the story, merely a somewhat expectable deity intervention somewhere in the beginning.

Incorrect. As can be readily seen above, the deus ex machina (which is literally a deity in this case) is that the deity appears to offer to contrived solution of turning a bad guy into a good guy, by way of making him do good acts. There was nothing expectable about it; but what makes it obvious that this does indeed fall under that term is that this is how the writer chooses to have his character undergo his transition from bad guy to good.

- Alzrius: "Cool. That changes the context - and had it been clear that he was some sort of militant atheist, I'd have said differently; since that changes the tone of the entire story."

This is General RPG Discussion. The only thing changed are unwarranted assumptions, like assigning d20 qualities to Blackguard term or assigning nonexistent prestige class prerequisites to Blackguard prestige class or overinterpreting core rules of d20 on divine spellcasters (what deities are listed as granting divine spells to Druids in the core rulebooks?).

As I said, the assumption was not warranted. With no frame of reference given, there is nothing against me using the one of my choosing to judge the merits (or lack thereof) of the synopsis originally posted. I chose to view it through the lens of D&D, to better illustrate what I felt was a major minus point in the story. That's just my opinion! It didn't then, or now, warrant the personal attack that has been seen lately.

- Alzrius: "I'm making the apparently safe assumption, based on the text given, that there's no reason to say this world would be different."
- Alzrius (a bit earlier): "And if this webfic was about Darth Vader, you'd have a great point; but it isn't. Basically, there's no reason not to assume this is a D&D-style setting. Why not? Everything about what was posted above smacks of it, down to the deities who interfere in mortal lives. Nothing Gez said gave any reason to assume this was anything other than a D&D-type blackguard."

This is not how the logic works. I'm rather glad to say but these statement are very easily falsified and as such are a little... to put it nicely... lacking in value.

Actually, that's exactly how logic works. Burdens of proof must be met, and this one, in the synopsis given, didn't. There was, (and still is not) any reason not to see this as a D&D-style world.

The rest of your post was rather puerile, making snide and elitist comments regarding points, as though you had the objectivity or authority to judge who was "winning". You don't. In the future, please refrain from making such comments; we don't like that around here.

 

[Gez]

Do we must argue semantics, now? Deus ex Machina referred to an artifice used in theater when the comedians where making a god appear (said god was a big painted wood panel, and the machine in question was the theater gears used to move it onto the scene), and they used this artifice only to solve a story that had become too complicated.

The DXM is, by extension, any sort of "magical wand" intervention that just makes everything go back to normal.

It's used at the end of a scenario, not at the beginning.

If you consider any divine intervention in a story to be a DXM, then you will not want to use any divine intervention, because DXM have bad press.

The thing is, it's only considered a DXM is it's contrived and without justifications other than "the author had no idea how to give the story a happy ending".

 

[Darkness]

In the future, please refrain from making such comments; we don't like that around here.

Yes. What's more, we also don't like someone's continuing to reply snarkily to preceeding flames after a moderator already asked people to calm down.

So please don't, everybody.


Seriously.


- Darkness,
moderator

 

[Particle_Man]

One idea for the fallen Blackguard is that it morally develops a la something like a child developing morality. Step #1: Does selfish stuff whenever he can get away with it. (CE-NE) Step #2: Bargaining time (When Mr. God puts in the appearance). (LE) Step#3: Trying to "Get" this good stuff -- first tries to follow rules, and may end up a bit too rulebound -- not because he is trying to get around the bargain, but because he really doesn't understand this good thing, and what it means to be good, so will follow rules first (hence the advisor -- at this point, the character is shifting from evil, so we will go for LN). Step #4: Finally getting it. Likes helping others, although still according to the rules (LG).
Step#5: Doesn't need advisor, but feels unbelievable guilt for past actions, and tries to do whatever possible to make it right. Step#6: Realizes that some things can't be put right, so tries to do as many good deeds as possible, with no thought of his own survival (Now we get onto the redeemed villain part, Book of Exalted Deeds style -- might even be Martyred one day).

What would be interesting would be some sort of "time travel" episode where the redeemed villain has to foil the plans of his past evil self, but without being discovered (to avoid paradox). Indeed, the past evil self cannot know that his plans were actually foiled, or that would cause paradox too.

 

[ruemere]

/the concept/

There is no shortage of reformed villains in literature.
This particular method (I call it the method of carrot and phantom stick) is one of my favorites as both allows for free will (at later stages) and powerful revelation on the side of the character.

The application of this concept to a PC would require a little more pregame as usual (blaspheming badasses are usually too antisocial to fit in a group):
- the divine intervention would have to take place before campaign start,
- the PCs would have to be mid level at the least (the badass-to-be-reformed character may have lost his levels through divine intervention, though... or she may be a reincarnation of original villain)
- in order to add depth to the evolution of the character, the GM should allow for occasional lapses of character's alignment (needless cruelty, bouts of rage) and strive to counter them with opportunities to atone.

Regards,
Ruemere