The Fallen Blackguard

[Alzrius]

You know, most normal people do not need big flashing neon signs and arrows and diagrams pointing out "THIS IS NOT A D&D SETTING" to proceed on that basis. Particularly when the work in question is from an outside source with no known link to D&D.

There was no reason not to think otherwise; at least as far as certain aspects went. Honestly, it looked like a duck, walked like a duck, etc. Should I be penalized for saying it would then quack like one? The few elements of the story we'd seen were perfectly in sync with D&D, so it didn't seem outrageous to make a D&D-style comment.

 

[Umbran]

Hey, if you guys intended to take what could have been a fascinating discussion and turn it into a usless strand of personal jibes, you've succeeded flawlessly.

Now that you've proven that you could do it, would you the two of you please stop?

 

[hong]

The character found he liked being good, but only long since after he was made to be good at the proverbial sword-point. That takes away from the characterization of why the change was made in the first place. No soul-searching, no internal questioning, just "I changed my alignment because a god said to, and I found it wasn't half-bad!"

You don't know that. What you've got from Gez is the executive summary; this happened first, then this, then this, and bang, here's the end. It's a safe assumption that more complex stuff happens in the actual story.

There was no reason not to think otherwise; at least as far as certain aspects went. Honestly, it looked like a duck, walked like a duck, etc. Should I be penalized for saying it would then quack like one? The few elements of the story we'd seen were perfectly in sync with D&D, so it didn't seem outrageous to make a D&D-style comment.

As said before, you are making the unwarranted assumption that all D&D settings everywhere work the same. We're a long way from the 2E philosophy that it's all one multiverse now. Some settings may have blackguards who are servants of evil gods; others may have them as agents who work at arm's length; others may not even have gods at all. The only thing that the 3E rules mandate is that the blackguard has to make contact with an evil outsider of some kind, and even this might be dispensed with for some campaigns.

 

[Alzrius]

You don't know that. What you've got from Gez is the executive summary; this happened first, then this, then this, and bang, here's the end. It's a safe assumption that more complex stuff happens in the actual story.

It's not a safe assumption. Gez posted what went through the character's mind, and it was that he basically looked up one day and realized that he liked being this way.

As said before, you are making the unwarranted assumption that all D&D settings everywhere work the same.

Wrong. I'm making the apparently safe assumption, based on the text given, that there's no reason to say this world would be different. No one except you is talking about "all D&D setting everywhere".

 

[Gez]

Woohoo! Catfight!



OK. To adress Alzrius' point that there's a God of Eeeeevil somewhere that cared about Markus, nope. There are gods and godesses of evil in the world, 'not a problem, but Markus' religious conviction, at the start of the story, is that gods are stupid, uncaring, parasites unworthy of worship. He was in a personal crusade against Hegan, not because he was a toady for an enemy of that god, but because Heganite faith is the strongest and most common.
His rhetorics could be sumed up that way: "See, if your god really existed, and if he really cared about what people do, if he was really worthy of the faith and trust you have in him, then he would intervene and stop me from doing what I'm doing, wouldn't he? But he don't, and you're dying stupidly; which proves that you are puny fools."

Eventually, Hegan proved himself worthy.

 

[hong]

It's not a safe assumption. Gez posted what went through the character's mind, and it was that he basically looked up one day and realized that he liked being this way.

This is a lengthy webcomic condensed down to a handful of paragraphs. It's quite obviously preposterous to say that nothing is going to be left out. Besides which, if you were to turn this into a game, then you would be free to include as much angst and soul-searching as you wanted, regardless of what the original was like.

Wrong. I'm making the apparently safe assumption, based on the text given, that there's no reason to say this world would be different.

Different from what? What are you using as your assumed world, and why do you assume it applies here?

No one except you is talking about "all D&D setting everywhere".

You are making the unwarranted assumption that this particular world, or the world of anyone who wants to use this idea, runs along the same lines as yours with regard to evil deities, blackguards and how the two relate to each other. Happy?

 

[Alzrius]

Woohoo! Catfight!

Meow baby.

OK. To adress Alzrius' point that there's a God of Eeeeevil somewhere that cared about Markus, nope. There are gods and godesses of evil in the world, 'not a problem, but Markus' religious conviction, at the start of the story, is that gods are stupid, uncaring, parasites unworthy of worship. He was in a personal crusade against Hegan, not because he was a toady for an enemy of that god, but because Heganite faith is the strongest and most common.
His rhetorics could be sumed up that way: "See, if your god really existed, and if he really cared about what people do, if he was really worthy of the faith and trust you have in him, then he would intervene and stop me from doing what I'm doing, wouldn't he? But he don't, and you're dying stupidly; which proves that you are puny fools."

Eventually, Hegan proved himself worthy.

Cool. That changes the context - and had it been clear that he was some sort of militant atheist, I'd have said differently; since that changes the tone of the entire story.

That said, I still think that being forced to become good on pain of, well, pain, takes away from the internal drama of (unforced) redemption, but that's just me.

 

[Alzrius]

This is a lengthy webcomic condensed down to a handful of paragraphs.

Webnovel.

It's quite obviously preposterous to say that nothing is going to be left out. Besides which, if you were to turn this into a game, then you would be free to include as much angst and soul-searching as you wanted, regardless of what the original was like.

It'd also be preposterous to reference something I hadn't read. I was working off of Gez's summary, nothing more.

Different from what? What are you using as your assumed world, and why do you assume it applies here?

Different from the standards we see in the three core rulebooks. I assume it applies here because, honestly, there's no reason to assume otherwise. Everything in the summary fits. It matches until proven otherwise.

You are making the unwarranted assumption that this particular world, or the world of anyone who wants to use this idea, runs along the same lines as yours with regard to evil deities, blackguards and how the two relate to each other. Happy?

I'm always happy!

That aside, the assumption is perfectly warranted; as I said, there was nothing to discourage such an assumption (heck, there still isn't!).

 

[DiFier]

I think that blackguard is a european (perhaps english) term for an evil person. I don't know exactally what it means but it doesn't always mean paladin of an evil god. I think this may be where the argument begins.

The first time I ever heard of a blackguard was dealing with D&D. but the term was not coined by the D&D people. recently while reading one of the patric O'brian novels (You know the basis of Master and Commander) They refered to the ruffian, street urchin children as blackguards now I'm pretty sure that they didn't mean that they were members of the Blackguard PrC. O'Brian tries to be historically accurate so I'm guessing he didn't get the term from D&D.

Seems to me that Alzrius assumed that blackguard ment D&D blackguard and I can see where that assumption would come from. say Blackguard on a D&D message board and people will think of the PrC. especially if they don't know about the european (?) term. of course there is nothing specific in the original description that would make this blackguard a D&D Blackguard. I assume that Hong had heard the term as meaning an evil person. he knew that it was also the name of a PrC but didn't see anything that made this charachter a mener of that PrC. If there was an evil B st rd PrC you wouldn't assume that every time somecalled someone an evil B st rd they were talking about the PrC.

As for the concept: it would give a DM a lot to throw at a PC, even if he were converted prior to the begining of play. he'd still have a reputation and many people who had heard of his conversion would not believe it. evil NPC may try to follow him. thinking that he is still evil or may do evil stuff in his name. plus he would have the internal conflict.

 

[Darthjaye]

Ok, let me address this again. I think if your gonna have this heated discussion about it offer alternatives not negative commentary that turns into arguements. Two of us seem to want to make a personal arguement out of it. Please step back for a second and all who want to post should find a way to offer some sort of other ways to enhance the story instead of shooting it down inside the narrow confines of what one or more of you believe to be the rules. The rules are flexible, understand that and you can have fun. If you want absolutes without any real variance go play a simple board game. Roleplaying is about opening your mind and enjoying whatever premise you can manage to come up with. If this about argueing over petty details please open a seperate thread and called it arguements or insults are us and keep it there. No offense to anyone out there just seems practical to help rather than slam and discard wholly this guys idea/ story. :\