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5E The "Faster Features" Variant (+)

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
Yes. Which defeats the purpose of the thread, however.
No, it doesn't. It actually is quite the point. The access to features is sooner, the potential of those features progresses at the normal pace (for the most part). Given the power of 6th+ level spells, keeping the progress of the spellcasting feature in check is quite intentional.
 

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Mistwell

Legend
No, it doesn't. It actually is quite the point. The access to features is sooner, the potential of those features progresses at the normal pace (for the most part). Given the power of 6th+ level spells, keeping the progress of the spellcasting feature in check is quite intentional.
Do you have access to higher level spell slots without the spells of those levels? No. But, that is a feature in my opinion that you're missing out on. You should be able to upcast spells with those higher slots at a lower level, as it's comparable to what fighters and rogues and others are getting with this concept.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes. Which defeats the purpose of the thread, however.
No it doesn't. The entire purpose is to move the class features other than spell casting and hit points down to the first 10 levels. Getting higher level spells after 10th is right in line with what he has expressly stated that he wants with spellcasting.
 

Mistwell

Legend
No it doesn't. The entire purpose is to move the class features other than spell casting and hit points down to the first 10 levels. Getting higher level spells after 10th is right in line with what he has expressly stated that he wants with spellcasting.
Spellcasting IS the primary feature. It's as primary a feature as hitting things more often with a weapon.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Spellcasting IS the primary feature. It's as primary a feature as hitting things more often with a weapon.
And they get it. They are FULLY equipped with spells at every level from 1-20. Unless you are suggesting that they get 9th level spells at 10th level, I don't understand what it is that you think Wizards aren't getting by 10th level.
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
UPDATE: We converted over our online game to the FFV concept. Didn't get too much else done except some role-playing to move the story along to the next part of the adventure, but we are primed for a dungeon-crawl/ installation-infiltration for our next session in two weeks. So, the true play-testing will start then. :)
 

Ganders

Explorer
The original post gives no explanation as to why almost all the ASIs were removed in the updated tables. This is quite confusing.
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
The original post gives no explanation as to why almost all the ASIs were removed in the updated tables. This is quite confusing.
It is under the SPOILER for Character Level Advancement.

ASIs have been removed from class features and are not associated with class levels any more. The only exception is for fighters and rogues and their "extra" ASIs. ASIs are associated with character level, like in earlier editions, not class level.

Sorry for any confusion.
 

As for the ASI level stuff, only a handful of classes have things and most of those could easily be shifted either way. As I saw them:

Cleric
Destroy Undead (CR 1) - move from 8th to 7th
Divine Domain feature - move from 8th to 9th

Druid
Wild Shape improvement (swim) - move from 4th to 5th
Wild Shape improvement (fly) - move from 8th to 9th

Monk
Slow Fall - move from 4th to 3rd

Ranger
Land's Stride - move from 8th to 9th

Then shift the features to follow the FF-variant (revised):

Level 1 = 1
Level 2 = 2
Level 3 = 3
Level 4 = 5
Level 5 = 6+7
Level 6 = 9+10
Level 7 = 11+13
Level 8 = 14+15
Level 9 = 17+18
Level 10 = 20
Level 11+ ... (as with FF-variant)


Can you provide an example? I haven't really seen anything that gives me any

UPDATE: We converted over our online game to the FFV concept. Didn't get too much else done except some role-playing to move the story along to the next part of the adventure, but we are primed for a dungeon-crawl/ installation-infiltration for our next session in two weeks. So, the true play-testing will start then. :)
Online game? That's only gonna yield virtual results! We need hard data, man! ;)
 


Ganders

Explorer
This plan very explicitly and intentionally accelerates all abilites except spellcasting (and cantrip scaling). So I'll just assume the effect on full-casters (and Eldritch Blast scaling) is intentional.

It's not obvious whether it'll tilt the balance just enough or too much... I'm afraid only rather extensive testing will say for sure.

The revised tables are much improved, I have little to add. But one little note: Warlock's Invocations is (are?) the only class ability with a separate level prerequisite. You might want to add a note about which will be available when.
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
This plan very explicitly and intentionally accelerates all abilites except spellcasting (and cantrip scaling). So I'll just assume the effect on full-casters (and Eldritch Blast scaling) is intentional.
Correct. Cantrip scaling will likely be addressed after play-testing. The effect is entirely intentional.

I'm afraid only rather extensive testing will say for sure.
Quite true. It is underway already but will take quite some time...

The revised tables are much improved, I have little to add. But one little note: Warlock's Invocations is (are?) the only class ability with a separate level prerequisite. You might want to add a note about which will be available when.
Thanks. I like a lot of the updated changes from the initial version (much thanks to posters in the thread for their input!).

Currently, invocation prerequisites are remaining as is. Once someone plays a warlock we'll address if they need to be updated or not. My initial thoughts are not, but I could easily be wrong about it. We'll see. :)
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
UPDATE: Class tables for Paladin and Rangers have been revised after a discussion last night. The updated tables have been added to the original post.

Spell progressions for Paladins and Rangers have been increased to match full-casters. Spell slots per level were reduced to represent "half-casters". This was so spells like Find Greater Steed and Steel Wind Strike would be available for longer and could be enjoyed, as the concept of faster-features represents. It seemed ridiculous to us that a Wizard could use and enjoy a spell like Steel Wind Strike before a Ranger could, or that a Bard (via Magical Secrets) could use Find Greater Steed before a Paladin.
 

Horwath

Hero
I like this a lot.

I hate when I see something that should be a class identity ability comes along at 10+ levels or even worse as a capstone.

Capstone abilities should come latest at 11th level(start of tier3 of play), any abilities after that level should be improvements on already gained abilites or just more uses per short/long rest and/or extra ASI's.
 

In general, I still feel like you should be filling every level 11-20 with something. I think you'll feel like you need to fill endgame with other rewards. Dead levels just suck.

My other general sense is that I still prefer my idea of keeping 1-10 the same, squashing the abilitys from 11-20 into 11-15, and then making 16-20 all ASI. But then, I'm not surprised that I like my idea better. It was mine, and I agree with my opinion that the progression levels 1-10 works pretty well.

Barbarian:

Question: Would increasing Rage Damage to match proficiency bonus be too much? It would only be a point or two higher than it is currently is at any level. It seems a simpler system and doesn't impact things too much. Thoughts?

I think it would be fine to do that. I'm pretty sure that the starting design was to have rage damage and number of rages both equal proficiency bonus. Rage damage is really very minor. Honestly, I'd much rather rage damage used bonus dice (+2 = d4, +3 = d6, etc.). That does make criticals more potent, but it just feels so much better to be rolling bonus dice that I'm not sure that I care.

Bard:

Is there a compelling reason not to move Bard College to level 1? So many of the class's subclasses grant weapon or armor or skill proficiencies that feel super uneven to get at level 3. IMO, it's this class that makes it most clear that all subclasses should start at level 1 as a design rule.

I am considering adding a final magical secrets at level 20. Thoughts?

If you're allowed to exchange lower level Secrets spells for higher level spells, I don't think I'd bother.

Cleric:

I would alter Divine Intervention to:

Regular: 1% per class level to work
Improved: 5% per class level to work

I just don't want to think about what an X level spell can do.

Druid:

I agree, plant wild shape is very thematic. I think question becomes: What is the CR of a shrubbry? Start with Animate Objects stats and try to work backwards?

Fighter:

If you're changing things, I like the idea of making Indomitable only expend a use on a successful reroll. It's a pretty terrible ability as the game progresses, although getting it at lower level alone helps a lot. It feels awful to blow the ability on bad saves all the time, however.

Monk:

Ki points progress way too slowly, IMO. Ki will fall quite far behind the other martial classes.

Paladin:

I think I prefer this style of half-spellcasting, but it does seem to significantly alter the potency of Smite. I'd probably want to limit Smite to once a turn. I don't think cantrips are neccessary, either. I think the VCF that makes cantrips a Fighting Style is a better choice.

Ranger:

You need to speed up spells known if you speed up progression that much. Honestly, though, I'd just throw that out for rangers entirely and copy the number you can prepare from Paladin. Making Rangers inflexible seems anathema to the concept. I'd probably not bother with Favored Enemy Strike and just use the CFVs in Tashas.

Rogue:

I don't think Evasion needs the nerf given that Sneak Attack is still on the slow progression track. Not sure if you've kept it. What does Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight spell progression look like given the changes to Paladin and Ranger?

Warlock:

Something feels off and I don't know what it is.

Oh! Invocation level limits! Should definitely revisit those.

Wizard:

I like Arcana Mastery. I'm not a huge fan of making counterspell even more omnipresent, though.
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
If you're allowed to exchange lower level Secrets spells for higher level spells, I don't think I'd bother.
No, we don't. We're trying to stick to more "official rulings" in such cases.

I would alter Divine Intervention to:

Regular: 1% per class level to work
Improved: 5% per class level to work
I like the 5% per class level and will adopt it. :)

I think I prefer this style of half-spellcasting, but it does seem to significantly alter the potency of Smite. I'd probably want to limit Smite to once a turn
If is funny you should mention the limit to once per turn, we decided to go that way earlier today.

You need to speed up spells known if you speed up progression that much.
We've been discussing making them the same as Sorcerers--so 2 at level 1 and +1 spell / level until 18 max is reached.

Or, we might just go prepared casters as well. shrug

I don't think Evasion needs the nerf given that Sneak Attack is still on the slow progression track.
We removed the Evasion nerf.

What does Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight spell progression look like given the changes to Paladin and Ranger?
We're still debating this as 1/3-casters. We'll probably advance it a bit, but I doubt it will match full-casters. I have to play around with it and we'll see what direction it heads.

Warlock:

Something feels off and I don't know what it is.
I've always felt that way about warlocks LOL! :)

Oh! Invocation level limits! Should definitely revisit those.
Play-testing will show us when we get someone playing a warlock. If we adopt this for our live game, more play-testing will occur so I think we'd see a warlock then. I'll keep the thread updated on it.

I'm not a huge fan of making counterspell even more omnipresent, though.
I'm not, either, but I feel like wizards need something and I don't want it to just be combat-oriented. If we ever think of something better, the counterspell feature will be gone I'm sure.

Thanks for all your input! :)
 

Horwath

Hero
I like the faster spell level access for paladin and ranger, but I would not give extra spell slots over 1st one until they have 2nd and 3rd or 4th spell slots like in the PHB.

that is paladin ranger should get for spell levels:

1st level spell slots: 1 slot at level 1, 2 slots at level 2, 3 slots at level 3 and 4 slots at level 5.
2nd level spell slots: 1 slot at level 3, 2 slots at level 5, 3 slots at level 7.
3rd level spell slots: 1 slot at level 5, 2 slots at level 9, 3 slots at level 11.
4th level spell slots: 1 slot at level 7, 2 slots at level 15, 3 slots at level 17.
5th level spell slots: 1 slot at level 9, 2 slots at level 19.

you still get access to spell levels as fast as a full caster, but additional spell slots are at the original power curve.

also. is 3/4/5 cantrips known so overpowered that you reduced it to 2/3/4 known?
unlike spell casters, martials have extra attack so cantrips compete for actions against good weapon attacks at 5th level.

as for 1/3rd casters you can have:

1st level spell slots: 2 slots at level 3, 3 slots at level 4, 4 slots at level 7.
2nd level spell slots: 1 slot at level 3, 2 slots at level 7, 3 slots at level 10.
3rd level spell slots: 1 slot at level 5, 2 slots at level 13, 3 slots at level 16.
4th level spell slots: 1 slot at level 7

and considering that you have very few spells known as 1/3 caster, it should not be too much of a problem for earlier access to higher level spells.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
Interesting work. I do wonder if the many dead levels later on will kill a campaign.

Here's another take on refurbishing the classses to focus on levels 1-10. It's quite good and may give some inspiration for this work.
 

6ENow!

The Game Is Over
Interesting work. I do wonder if the many dead levels later on will kill a campaign.

Here's another take on refurbishing the classses to focus on levels 1-10. It's quite good and may give some inspiration for this work.
With ASIs and new proficiencies every other level, and getting higher level spells, better feature numbers (such as sneak attack, etc.), there really aren't many "dead" levels, even in the upper half.

I already did L10 and L12 variants similar to your link, but thanks for sharing. :)
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
With ASIs and new proficiencies every other level, and getting higher level spells, better feature numbers (such as sneak attack, etc.), there really aren't many "dead" levels, even in the upper half.

I already did L10 and L12 variants similar to your link, but thanks for sharing. :)
+1 prof. as the only gain besides hp over two levels is not much, imo. YMMV and all that :)
 

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