D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Scribe]

I should have indicated my post was made somewhat sarcastically, as what the identity of the Ranger is has been really confused over the years. If it's as you say, "skilled outdoorsman" really isn't a class, but a profession that encompasses a couple different skills.

I'm fighting against it, but I keep thinking Ranger is a Rogue subclass, and I havent been able to shake it lol.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm fighting against it, but I keep thinking Ranger is a Rogue subclass, and I havent been able to shake it lol.

It depends on what kind of Ranger you want to play. The wilderness scout and skirmisher is best exemplified by Rogue mechanics, as is sniping, lining up to make a single damaging ranged attack.

The "warrior of the wilds" is probably still a Barbarian trope, and a Fighter might still be the best choice for a master archer. If you want a more mystical Ranger, the Druid is right there.

 

[Zardnaar]

It depends on what kind of Ranger you want to play. The wilderness scout and skirmisher is best exemplified by Rogue mechanics, as is sniping, lining up to make a single damaging ranged attack.

The "warrior of the wilds" is probably still a Barbarian trope, and a Fighter might still be the best choice for a master archer. If you want a more mystical Ranger, the Druid is right there.

Rangers always been your wilderness warrior.

Barbarian was a Horde leader, then 2E take then 3E onwards a Rager.

 

[James Gasik]

Rangers always been your wilderness warrior.

Barbarian was a Horde leader, then 2E take then 3E onwards a Rager.

Maybe it's just me, but I think a class with features like "Climb Cliffs and Trees", "Hide in Natural Surroundings", "Surprise", "Survival", "First Aid", "Outdoor Craft", "Tracking", "Animal Handling", "Horsemanship", "Long Distance Signaling", "Running", "Small Craft, paddled", "Small Craft, rowed", and "Sound Imitation" is a lot more "wilderness warrior" than "Horde Leader".

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe it's just me, but I think a class with features like "Climb Cliffs and Trees", "Hide in Natural Surroundings", "Surprise", "Survival", "First Aid", "Outdoor Craft", "Tracking", "Animal Handling", "Horsemanship", "Long Distance Signaling", "Running", "Small Craft, paddled", "Small Craft, rowed", and "Sound Imitation" is a lot more "wilderness warrior" than "Horde Leader".

Think Rangers come from civilized lands while barbarians are the outlanders.

Now they just rage Rangers been more consistent with the wilderness things.

2E is thematically the strongest contender for wilderness warrior.

 

[jgsugden]

Incomplete, more heavily massaged then a prize-fighter data.

I am truly a miracle to behold. I can simultaenously be incomplete, meaning I leave a lot of stuff out, and yet have data that I can heavily massage it. Behold my works and tremble at my might!

And the ranger pretty much proves the point. People play it despite it being clear and present garbage because it's close as they'll get to Legolas.

No. Dude. Gloomstalkers are seen as overpowered by many due to their alpha strike extra attack at 3rd level that stacks with multiattack. Optimization guides have shown that you can build very powerful versions of other rangers at the mid levels. They have many abilities that do not excite or seem powerful (except conditionally), but they are just fine overall - although some designs, in particular the Beast Master, need work.

You claim that people are suffering through the playing of fighters. I see people revel in it. Look at Critical Role. Their most seasoned player elected to play a fighter in their third campaign. Is he having fun? Absolutely! I've seen dozens of people choose to play fighters. I've played fighters. None of them (and certainly not I) suffered any coercion, or felt like it was a bad choice.

Survery results, from multiple sources, disagree with you. My personal experiences - which are substantial in nature and cover a wide spectrum of play groups and styles - disagree with you. When confronted with countering evidence, your response is to ambiguously claim the data is simultaneously skimpy and heavily massaged without any support for either of the conflicting arguments.

I think my argument was concise and directly on point - the numbers show people play it more than any other class despite having wide options available to them.

 

[ECMO3]

First time players often bullocks up the more complicated classes.

They bullocks up the whole game because they are new - "what is a bonus action?"

But playing a champion fighter or other bland PC if they do not have the personality for that is going to mean they won't enjoy it, which is far worse than making mistakes.

If you want to build something easy to play in tier 1 - build something without a lot of bonus actions, reactions or attacks of opportunity .... a fighter isn't that!

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think my argument was concise and directly on point - the numbers show people play it more than any other class despite having wide options available to them.

Your argument is couched in data that has historically been subject to highly suspect interpretation.

 

[ECMO3]

Gloomstalkers are seen as overpowered by many due to their alpha strike extra attack at 3rd level that stacks with multiattack. Optimization guides have shown that you can build very powerful versions of other rangers at the mid levels. They have many abilities that do not excite or seem powerful (except conditionally), but they are just fine overall - although some designs, in particular the Beast Master, need work.

A Fey Wanderer with a background with Charisma skills, Cause Fear through Shadow Touched, maximum Wisdom and a 14 Charisma is bonkers.

You have so much ability in all 3 phases:

Two extra skills compared to most classes, expertise in a skill, a +7 on your Charisma skills and +5 Wisdom means you are elite-level in both the social and exploration pillars.
Swimming and Climbing speed
Roughly as many spells to cast per day as an equal level full caster
Beguiling Twist - the gift that keeps on giving
Summon a concentration-free army of Fey, each of them throwing a charm (and you throwing beguiling twist if they save)
Turn invisible for a round as a bonus action, and it is not canceled by casting a spell or making an attack.

And that is all before you consider that you have a d10 hit die, fighting style, extra attack and favored foe and as such are still decent in a fight with weapons when your fears, charms and summons won't cut it.

 

[jgsugden]

Your argument is couched in data that has historically been subject to highly suspect interpretation.

You mean that people that find that it does not support their position tend to dismiss it without reason?