D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

Not at all. It may be easier for those of us who are invested to believe this, but its far easier to assume that the vast majority do not care at all or do not even perceive such an imbalance to exist.

The imbalance we are talking about here does not exist for most players. So it is not an assumption or perception but rather a reality in their games.

Look at the published WOTC adventures - this is what most players play. Where does this imbalance actually manifest itself? It is over 8th level where the Wizard really starts to move away from Fighters. That is halfway through princes of the Apocolypse and Rise of Tiamat, but it is close to the end or at the very end of the other campaigns. As far as cohesive campaigns go, only DOMM is going to play that out through the upper tiers. Now add that a lot of players start a campaign, go through a bit and then quit before finishing and you are biased even more to levels where this is not a thing.

So this fighter-Wizard imbalance is not a thing for most players.

Also the Fighter-Wizard imbalance is beat to death on this forum. But the Monk-Wizard and the Barbarian-Wizard imbalance is greater. Does this mean the players who complain about the imbalance for fighters do not care at all or even perceive the greater imbalance for Monks and Barbarians?
 

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The imbalance we are talking about here does not exist for most players. So it is not an assumption or perception but rather a reality in their games.

Yes.


Also the Fighter-Wizard imbalance is beat to death on this forum. But the Monk-Wizard and the Barbarian-Wizard imbalance is greater. Does this mean the players who complain about the imbalance for fighters do not care at all or even perceive the greater imbalance for Monks and Barbarians?

Also yes, but likely they would admit to it being a problem if the popularity of Fighter wasn't such an issue in terms of their argument that the balance is an issue.
 

If anything, that makes the problem worse.

Imagine a D&D-like game with some obviously powerful and obviously weak classes, the weak classes are also very unappealing concepts, and no one ever plays them. The result is that only sub-set of the game - a part that may even be balanced, w/in itself - is being played. That's just wasting some space.

There is no fundamental problem with classes that no one ever plays. Perhaps such classes should just be deleted, but it is not hurting the game if no one at your table, or even no one at any table plays a particular class.

Further we don't have this problem in 5E. We certainly don't have it for fighters and we don't even have it for Monks. People do play those classes. They play those classes a lot and they are not unappealing at all to many players.

In mainstream D&D (still sounds like an oxymoron to my grognard ears, but it is much more mainstream than ever before), which isn't presented or played in ways like that, tho, the inferior classes are more like 'trap' choices, that exist to reward savvier players for choosing better options (ie, what Cook called 'Timmeh Cards'), or accomplish that accidentally, if just the result of bad design.

But the classes are not this. Some of the feats and subclasses are "trap" choices and those should be redesigned, although I don't think the problem even there is as big as implied because few people at a table will let novice players choose such trap feats or subclasses without telling them it is a trap and when they do DMs will generally allow them to reverse it.

I have an example when a woman at my table took the Defensive Duelist feat at 4th level. Defensive duelist is not a trap in general, but it is for a Rogue and she was a Rogue. She had awesome ability rolls with an 18 and two 16s at 1st level so she was the most powerful character at the table. I did not say anything at 4th level, because I like new players to pick their choices unless it is not going to work, and this did work at 4th level. At 5th level during level up when she was writing down her new abilities she realized DD would conflict with uncanny dodge. I could tell she was disappointed, but she didn't complain. I asked her if she just wanted to pick another feat. If your table won't do that kind of thing then the table is the problem. In all honesty, with her crazy high ability scores she was likely more "balanced" with that wasted feat.

Also, although I think there are trap subclasses, I don't think there are trap fighter subclasses. Maybe PDK for someone who completely does not know the game. But even with PDK there is a viable build for a certain type of narrowly-focused character.
 

Also yes, but likely they would admit to it being a problem if the popularity of Fighter wasn't such an issue in terms of their argument that the balance is an issue.

But arguing for a more poweful fighter because we need class balance is not justified when you are not arguing to balance classes weaker than fighter.

I could just as easily say fighters should be nerfed to achieve balance between fighter and monk. There is as much logic to the arguement to balance Monk and Fighter (more actually considering this is prevalent at more levels of the game) as there is to say we need to achieve balance between fighter and wizard.
 

Also the Fighter-Wizard imbalance is beat to death on this forum. But the Monk-Wizard and the Barbarian-Wizard imbalance is greater. Does this mean the players who complain about the imbalance for fighters do not care at all or even perceive the greater imbalance for Monks and Barbarians?
It is obvious that W > F. It is also obvious that W > M.

But W > M is much less discussed because the monk is a much less popular class. The monk is too niche.

Fighter being too weak is a bigger problem because the class itself is conceptually popular.
 

I don't really buy this because all 3 of these classes have unique fighting styles not available to the other classes (technically the fighter-specific styles that are available through a feat to any class ..... at a very high cost).
Thanks. I wasn't sure if it had changed since the PH, or if I was remembering it right in the first place.
...google...google...
It looks like I was remembering it correctly, but it changed in Tasha's.
That's an improvement. But it's one less example I can use of 5e being like TSR D&D. ;)

There is no fundamental problem with classes that no one ever plays. Perhaps such classes should just be deleted, but it is not hurting the game if no one at your table, or even no one at any table plays a particular class.
Precisely. In the extreme case where an inferior class is also unappealing, it's not a problem in play. Just a waste of space.
5e does not have that minor issue - it's inferior classes are pretty popular, they're successful trap choices.
But arguing for a more poweful fighter because we need class balance is not justified when you are not arguing to balance classes weaker than fighter.
Any class' weaker' (even less effective/versatile/viable) than the fighter should also be brought into balance with all the other classes, obviously. Fighter v Wizard is an example of class imbalance, but delivering class balance would necessarily involve all classes.
 
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5e does not have that minor issue - it's inferior classes are pretty popular, they're successful trap choices.

There are no classes that are trap choices IMO. Some classes are "inferior" to others at some levels, although if you assume maximum optimization and equivalent ability scores, which classes that applies to changes depending on what specific level(s) you are talking about.

A trap choice implies something that players do not realize is an issue or that would lead people to believe it will be fun when it is not, and that is different conceptually than just being inferior. There are trap feats, there are trap subclasses, there are even trap spells. But IMO there are not actual trap classes.

Any class' weaker' (even less effective/versatile/viable) than the fighter should also be brought into balance with all the other classes, obviously. Fighter v Wizard is an example of class imbalance, but delivering class balance would necessarily involve all classes.

If this is the case we shoudl not focus on fighter and Wizard because these are only 2 classes, and not two that are easy to balance either. Balancing these two would make some other imbalances greater.

If we want to balance all classes step 1 should be to talk about weakening the Fighter to bring it in line with the Monk and Barbarian. Fighter-Wizard should not be the first thing on the list as long as that disparity among the non-casters exist and is as great as it is. Achieve balance among the martials as a necessary first step if this holy grail of balance is something that you think is needed.

The idea that balance must occur at or above where the fighter currently stands is itself a deeply flawed premise, as is the idea that Fighter and Wizards are the pillars to balance the game with.
 

A trap choice implies something that players do not realize is an issue or that would lead people to believe it will be fun when it is not, and that is different conceptually than just being inferior.
Yes. You have class imbalance. You have classes on the 'wrong' side of that imbalance (tho, really, the OP class could be nerfed, too). Yet they are still popular. If they weren't played at all, they would just be wasted space, since they are played, they're succesful trap choices.
There are trap feats, there are trap subclasses, there are even trap spells. But IMO there are not actual trap classes.
I suppose sub-classes do cover a range, too. You could look at that different ways. You could consider each sub-class independently, which is not unreasonable. Or you could consider each class, either, as a whole, or before considering sub-class (or considering it's 'best' sub-class if they're not balanced), since they are equally-weighted choices. Then consider each sub-class only with respect to other sub-classes of the same class.
If this is the case we shoudl not focus on fighter and Wizard because these are only 2 classes, and not two that are easy to balance either. Balancing these two would make some other imbalances greater.
Any two classes should balance.
Achieve balance among the martials as a necessary first step if this holy grail of balance is something that you think is needed.
Imbalances among martials are a blip compared to those between full casters and non-casters. Which is not to say they're minor, just that the martial/caster gap is huge.
The idea that balance must occur at or above where the fighter currently stands is itself a deeply flawed premise, as is the idea that Fighter and Wizards are the pillars to balance the game with.
TBF, a first step could be determining which class has the least leeway in setting it's overall effectiveness. In D&D, that really seems to be the fighter, which is constrained by a profound unwillingness of vocal enough segments of the fanbase to accept it as supernatural, and another equally small and vocal segment even less willing to accept non-superntural classes being able to do much.

Once you've done the best you can with that class within those constraints, you could nerf or buff other classes to it's level. I'm afraid it'd be mostly nerf.

But, ultimately, success would be all classes balance.
 

Yes. You have class imbalance. You have classes on the 'wrong' side of that imbalance (tho, really, the OP class could be nerfed, too). Yet they are still popular. If they weren't played at all, they would just be wasted space, since they are played, they're succesful trap choices.

I don't believe there is a right and wrong side of balance. There is a strong and weak, but what is right is what you as the player want to play.

Being weak is not the same as being a trap, nor is it the same as being wrong. I am playing a Monk right now, I was not trapped into doing that and I am not wrong for doing that.

I suppose sub-classes do cover a range, too. You could look at that different ways. You could consider each sub-class independently, which is not unreasonable. Or you could consider each class, either, as a whole, or before considering sub-class (or considering it's 'best' sub-class if they're not balanced), since they are equally-weighted choices. Then consider each sub-class only with respect to other sub-classes of the same class.

This is a flawed approach because certain classes are more reliant on subclass than others. Wizards and Paladins for example are not heavily reliant on subclass. Clerics and fighters are more reliant on subclass and subclass is a

If you consider the best subclasses of each class (probably Rune Knight or Eldritch Knight on a Fighter), the amount of imbalance goes down tremendously becuase that is a big buff for classes like Fighters and Clerics, but a smaller Buff for other classes. Further using an optimal class for some classes like Cleric (Twilight) or Monk (Mercy) completely changes the dynamics of the class Balance. A Twilight Cleric more powerful than any Wizard with equal abilities at most levels if you do it this way. So to achieve "balance" you would need to actually nerf the cleric or buff the Wizard, since the optimal Cleric is so good.

Further the amount of imbalance between fighters and Wizards is generally small compared to the amount of imbalance between races when playing such classes and the best races typically do more for Fighters than they do for Wizards.

So when we are doing this balancing act are we assuming optimal races too? This is important because the best races are a bigger boost for martials than they generally are for casters. So to achieve this perfect balance are we to assume the optimal race for each specific class (and subclass). So there is one single point where there is balance?

What levels should we strive for balance at? Wizards are not as powerful as Monks at 1st and 2nd level, so do we need to nerf Monks a bit because of that?

Finally different ability scores dramatically change balance and not only different ability scores between PCs, but the same distribution on different classes changes the balance dynamic as well. A Wizard with no ability above 14 loses a lot more than a Druid with no score above 14. A Paladin with a single 14 who picks an optimal subclass is generally going to be weaker than a fighter with a single 14 who picks an optimal subclass.

Any two classes should balance.

You can't do that as long as choice is at play. My fighter that chooses to invest points in Charisma instead of Constitution (and this is common on fighters I personally play) is going to be weaker.


Imbalances among martials are a blip compared to those between full casters and non-casters.

The imbalance between Fighters and Monks at most levels is larger than the imbalance between Fighters and Wizards at most levels. Where this is not true are levels 1-2 where the Monk is actually the most powerful of these three classes and at level 17+ after Wish comes online. At every other level a Fighter is closer to a Wizard than it is to Monk.

Which is not to say they're minor, just that the martial/caster gap is huge.

Not at all levels and especially not if you assume optimal subclass choices.

There is no appreciable gap between an optimized human fighter with standard array at levels 3-8 and an optimized human Wizard with Standard Array at those same levels.

TBF, a first step could be determining which class has the least leeway in setting it's overall effectiveness. In D&D, that really seems to be the fighter, which is constrained by a profound unwillingness of vocal enough segments of the fanbase to accept it as supernatural, and another equally small and vocal segment even less willing to accept non-superntural classes being able to do much.

No it isn't, it is the Monk or Barbarian at most levels above level 3 and the difference is pretty great.

This argument that fighters are restricted to being mundane holds no water at all in modern RAW 5E considering all the supernatural options available to fighters.

The fighter has very strong subclass choices it can use to set overall effectiveness, including access to spells and many other supernatural abilities through those subclasses.

Fighters can turn giant size and summon flaming shackles or teleport across the battlefield, or have poisonous thorns spring from their arrows, or shoot fire from their fingertips ..... It is fine if players choose not to have their PC fighters do those kinds of things, but it is also a conscious choice to play on the weak (but not wrong) side of imbalance.

Once you've done the best you can with that class within those constraints, you could nerf or buff other classes to it's level.

But those aren't constraints in 5E. There is no requirement at all for 5E fighters to not be supernatural! Aside from the subclasses and races, in 5E not even the feats are constrained like this.

If I want I can build a single-class fighter that can cast 14 leveled spells a day at 8th level. That is without even thinking about it very hard!
 
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It just strikes me as strange that two characters of the same level can have wildly different effectiveness and power. Back in the TSR days, this made a little more sense since the xp tables (kind of) reflected that: Thieves didn't get a whole lot from leveling, so they went up levels faster, Fighters get the best improvements so they went up slower. Rangers and Paladins got a little boost over Fighters, so they took even more xp.

Of course, it totally broke down with Clerics and Wizards (and don't even get me started on Druids).

But then WotC is like, no that's silly, everyone can level up at the same time. And then they failed to make sure that two characters of the same level with different classes were roughly equal.

But I suppose I can't be too hard on them, because what metric do you use? If someone gives up a little combat power for more out of combat utility or vice versa, what's the exchange rate? Is Expertise in two skills equal to Second Wind? Or a bonus ASI?

And when you look at spellcasters, it's truly apples and oranges. You might go up a level as a martial and get more of stuff you had before (Maneuver or Expertise choices) and casters are not only getting more spell slots, but access to higher level spells. Is Extra Attack every combat turn equal to Fireball once per day? Or Slow?

I couldn't tell you and I imagine neither can a professional game designer, lol. It's apparently more art than science, where you have to make judgements based on feelings instead of facts.

Now it's true, games can be (and have been) built with closer parity between options, but D&D has a lot of legacy content that makes this more difficult- spells in the first place, since they can do pretty much anything. People familiar with D&D want a certain class fantasy and play style.

Rogues can't Sneak Attack with great swords, for example. Why? Not really for any balance reason, but because most people want their Rogues to be sneaky gits with light blades, and if greatsword was an option, why, they'd be nerfing themselves for not using a greatsword!

Of course, this isn't universal- a Wizard could theoretically wear full plate if they wanted to (and boy do I know that bothers some people, lol). But a lot of the game is devoted to enforcing a certain flavor for the classes, and, at least sometimes, that's apparently a higher priority than any sort of equity.
 

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