D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

[Corwin]

Do you see how the Barbarian and Paladin both get features (rage, spellcasting, smite, aura, etc) that scale well and often from 1st or 2nd level and the Fighter has staccato much less useful features that scale less often? I'm not sure where anyone can call that fine.

Action Surge and Second Wind don't scale well?

 

[DaviMMS]

Even Mike Mearls, one of the designers bemoans the state they left the Fighter in.

The only statement about the design of fighter made by Mike Mearls I known of talks about how its subclasses fail to tell a story.

It has nothing to do with the class power levels.

He was just trying to say that the class felt too generic, and that was something he regreted.

That is also the reason all the UA subclasses released for the fighter so far tried to have a specific theme. I would rather play a Monster Hunter or Scout than a battlemaster, even knowing that from a pure combat point of view, the battlemaster is stronger.

If you're talking about other statement I don't know of, ignore my post.

 

[Zardnaar]

Action Surge and Second Wind don't scale well?

Action surge does second wind not so much. Hell lay on hands is better imho.

My dex based halfling fighter concept should have 18 or 20 dex and two feats by level 6. Have not seen a good halfling fighter since 2E.

 

[Corwin]

Action surge does second wind not so much.

Aren't opinions grand? If only there was some sort of objective benchmark, to base such a claim on, we could get somewhere productive...

Hell lay on hands is better imho.

Darnit! You got me again with that nebulous "better" tag. Well played. If only real things like action economy and/or rest recovery mechanics were somehow able to be factored into whiteroom theory-craft, eh?

 

[Corwin]

My dex based halfling fighter concept should have 18 or 20 dex and two feats by level 6.

What level does his personality kick in?

Have not seen a good halfling fighter since 2E.

I've seen good halfling fighters over the last few decades. A few evil ones, too. But mostly a boatload of neutral ones!

 

[Zardnaar]

What level does his personality kick in?


I've seen good halfling fighters over the last few decades. A few evil ones, too. But mostly a boatload of neutral ones!

Its a theory craft build atm odds are I will be Guy the Cleric 4.0. I'll roll random traits and build on that.

 

[Warpiglet]

The only statement about the design of fighter made by Mike Mearls I known of talks about how its subclasses fail to tell a story.

It has nothing to do with the class power levels.

He was just trying to say that the class felt too generic, and that was something he regreted.

That is also the reason all the UA subclasses released for the fighter so far tried to have a specific theme. I would rather play a Monster Hunter or Scout than a battlemaster, even knowing that from a pure combat point of view, the battlemaster is stronger.

If you're talking about other statement I don't know of, ignore my post.

I actually have always resented having too much ready made story. I did not like prestige classes for example or even kits (I did not play that edition in actuality) and always felt my friends and I had cool stories and memorable personalities to boot.

So it is too hard to flavor a fighter? But "wizard" says it all? I don't get this perspective. Both have some intro text saying what could be, but really do we want to be told what to imagine in great detail for all classes?

I cannot fathom why the concern about fighter but not wizard, cleric or thief.

 

[Mistwell]

I still dissent.

We should have some framework of comparison with the other classes:

2nd level, 5th level, 11th level, 17th level would be fair as those are important levels to the Fighter.

Class/Level	Barbarian	Paladin	Fighter
2nd	Rage (2 / day), Reckless Attacks, Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense	Divine Sense, Lay On Hands, Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Divine Smite	Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge
5th level	Rage(3/day), ASI, Extra Attack	Spellcasting, ASI, Extra Attack, Divine Health	ASI, Extra Attack
11th level	Rage(4/day), Feral Instinct, ASI, Brutal Critical, Relentless Rage	Spellcasting, Aura of Protection, ASI, Aura of Courage, Improved Divine Smite	ASI, Indomitable, Extra Attack
17th level	Rage(6/day), ASI, Brutal Critical (2), Persistent Rage, ASI, Brutal Critical (3)	Spellcasting, ASI, Cleansing Touch, ASI	ASI, Indomitable(2), ASI, ASI, Action Surge (2), Indomitable (3)

Do you see how the Barbarian and Paladin both get features (rage, spellcasting, smite, aura, etc) that scale well and often from 1st or 2nd level and the Fighter has staccato much less useful features that scale less often? I'm not sure where anyone can call that fine.

Every single Fighter ability in your list either scales or benefits a Bounded Accuracy game feature (which of course scales). Let's go through them

Fighting Style: Defense gives a bonus to AC which stacks with everything. AC is one of the bounded accuracy features of the game, which means it benefits (by definition) for the entire course of the game. Similarly Archery gives a +2 bonus, which stacks with all other attack bonuses, and is part of bounded accuracy. Same goes for the other styles but you get the point.

Second Wind: It's "plus fighter level" so scales.

Action Surge: An additional set of attacks scales. When you get more than one attack per attack action, that means Action Surge gives you those additional attacks, therefore scales very well.

Feats: Most scale well. (now go ahead and tell me how feats are optional while leaving out that your group uses feats and almost everyone here reports using feats)

Indomitable: Saves happen throughout all levels of the game and therefore advantage on them scales well with the game.

Extra Attack: Of course this scales, as it's using all the things involved with your attack (most of which scale). You always want more attacks regardless of level.

So yes, it's fine. I am calling it fine - it all scales well. Are you still not sure how I can call it fine?

 

[AverageCitizen]

Even Mike Mearls, one of the designers bemoans the state they left the Fighter in.

Do you have a quote you're thinking of, here? Because if it's the one I'm thinking of, he regretted the fighter's lack of identity, not its power.

 

[Zardnaar]

Every single Fighter ability in your list either scales or benefits a Bounded Accuracy game feature (which of course scales). Let's go through them

Fighting Style: Defense gives a bonus to AC which stacks with everything. AC is one of the bounded accuracy features of the game, which means it benefits (by definition) for the entire course of the game. Similarly Archery gives a +2 bonus, which stacks with all other attack bonuses, and is part of bounded accuracy. Same goes for the other styles but you get the point.

Second Wind: It's "plus fighter level" so scales.

Action Surge: An additional set of attacks scales. When you get more than one attack per attack action, that means Action Surge gives you those additional attacks, therefore scales very well.

Feats: Most scale well. (now go ahead and tell me how feats are optional while leaving out that your group uses feats and almost everyone here reports using feats)

Indomitable: Saves happen throughout all levels of the game and therefore advantage on them scales well with the game.

Extra Attack: Of course this scales, as it's using all the things involved with your attack (most of which scale). You always want more attacks regardless of level.

So yes, it's fine. I am calling it fine - it all scales well. Are you still not sure how I can call it fine?

Some don't svale that well vs incoming damage. Second wind for example.

Action srgr scales very well. 7 or 9 attacks a round at level 11 and more or less every encounter when you get 2 of them.