The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

[TwoSix]

It seems to be a value statement. I don't like the metric. I am OK with Bob the champion being able to do more damage than Waldo. Waldo can do disguise self and silent image. I would argue Waldo might do more in some sessions than Bob. Then I read this thread and see that fo some people it comes down to symmetry in all facets of the game.

That isn't the argument, though. The argument is that Pete the Greatsword Fighter shouldn't do 40% more damage than Bob the Dual Handaxe Fighter, just because he's using a Greatsword.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Krachek, you do realize that there are a lot more spells other than direct damage, right? So it’s fundamentslly flawed to compare one class as overall weaker than another when you’re only looking at DPR of a standard attack when one class can do a whole lot more in other game affecting abilities that the other can’t.

 

[AtomicPope]

The game is not just about "damage." You can "kill" monsters without ever doing any damage. Banishment comes to mind. Elementals have a low Charisma and will be "killed" by failing a save. Feeblemind will "kill" a spell caster. Forcewall "kills" group tactics. Stun and paralysis conditions shut down monsters.

I'm currently playing an Enchanter. My damage is pretty much nil. However, I cast Hold Monster and watch our Rogue do 60 damage with one attack.

 

[Warpiglet]

The game is not just about "damage." You can "kill" monsters without ever doing any damage. Banishment comes to mind. Elementals have a low Charisma and will be "killed" by failing a save. Feeblemind will "kill" a spell caster. Forcewall "kills" group tactics. Stun and paralysis conditions shut down monsters.

I'm currently playing an Enchanter. My damage is pretty much nil. However, I cast Hold Monster and watch our Rogue do 60 damage with one attack.

Is forcecage ever better than 70 damage? Yes.

Do SMART enemies refuse to be bags of static hit points? Yes.

It's really meant to be a team game where people are good at things, not necessarily the exact same things.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Is forcecage ever better than 70 damage? Yes.

Do SMART enemies refuse to be bags of static hit points? Yes.

It's really meant to be a team game where people are good at things, not necessarily the exact same things.

I've seen a player use a single charm person spell to neutralize an entire bandit stronghold. Make the right person your friend, and amazing what you can make happen.

 

[Satyrn]

I've seen a player use a single charm person spell to neutralize an entire bandit stronghold. Make the right person your friend, and amazing what you can make happen.

I've done that! I think it was a werewolf den, instead of bandits, though.

Didn't even need to use a spell. I was just a paladin with a winning smile, and a smarmy politician's fake promises.

 

[Krachek]

Krachek, you do realize that there are a lot more spells other than direct damage, right? So it’s fundamentslly flawed to compare one class as overall weaker than another when you’re only looking at DPR of a standard attack when one class can do a whole lot more in other game affecting abilities that the other can’t.

Of course. None damage spell is another aspect of the game. It can help a lot, and save the party often.
But with legendary resitançe and spell resitance you need a way to do reliable damage.
A hold monster can be more valuable than the 2 and a half quicken firebolt you can do instead.
But the sorlock can repeat 80 points of damage for multiple rounds.
It is hard to compete this even with 5 or 6 th level spell.

 

[Mistwell]

I've seen a player use a single charm person spell to neutralize an entire bandit stronghold. Make the right person your friend, and amazing what you can make happen.

The OP's perspective, from another recent thread, is that "Damage is King".

 

[bedir than]

Of course. None damage spell is another aspect of the game. It can help a lot, and save the party often.
But with legendary resitançe and spell resitance you need a way to do reliable damage.
A hold monster can be more valuable than the 2 and a half quicken firebolt you can do instead.
But the sorlock can repeat 80 points of damage for multiple rounds.
It is hard to compete this even with 5 or 6 th level spell.

Legendary Resistance, Spell Resistance, Damage Immunities can all apply to damaging spells too.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The OP's perspective, from another recent thread, is that "Damage is King".

It’s like the rally car driver who says speed is king until they come to their first curve.