D&D General The Future is Now! 3D AI-run VTT on Kickstarter

[Stormonu]

This reminds me a lot of Neverwinter Nights, updated to 5E - and a bit of RPGMaker. I like both of those programs.

I wish them the best of luck, this really is something I'd to add to my collection of RPG tools.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

We're well past the Second. The First was back in the late '70s with big room-sized computers crunching simple code.

That would be the beginning of the First "Great" Digitization of Dungeons and Dragons. The Second Digitization is fundamentally different from the First but it shall lead to the same end.

 

[Stormonu]

Sorry. I just don't see the benefit. It will take longer to learn this software than it would to write a note to do those things. It will also cost a lot more money. If the referee doesn't want to deal with traps, mobs, etc, then simply don't include them.

We're well past the Second. The First was back in the late '70s with big room-sized computers crunching simple code.

For D&D? Are you talking something like Colossal Cave or MUD?

I think we may be on the 5th or 6th generation of using computers to act as a go-between for players & DMs.

Back in the '90's/early 00's, Neverwinter Nights came with NWN scripting that you could use to build your own 3E/3.5E adventures, or to use as a VTT. This seems along the same lines. I used NWN to build a couple of single-play adventures, eventually a campaign (Secrets of Kalaria), and used it for a short time to do some VTT style DMing. But that was back in the day where it was a lot easier for my friends to get together at a table rather than have them drag PCs across town to play together electronically. Nowadays, with something like this and Discord, we don't even have to leave our houses.

Yes, it will take some practice and work to get up to speed on it, but I'm one of the ones willing to put some effort in to try and make it work, especially now that in-person gaming is getting more difficult to arrange. I'm not sure this software will fund, but it's an age where gaming electronically isn't so bad a thing.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Sorry. I just don't see the benefit. It will take longer to learn this software than it would to write a note to do those things. It will also cost a lot more money. If the referee doesn't want to deal with traps, mobs, etc, then simply don't include them.

Maybe you don't play online a lot. All my games are through VTTs. I haven't played an in-person game in 2 years. Roll20 already offers most 5e modules ready to go with dynamic lighting and everything pre-made and so does foundry. This is offering the same.

As far as cost, Foundry costs 50$ and roll20 requires a subscription if you want dynamic lighting. I already pay a subscription for Inkarnate and it can take an hour to make a battle mat. Each decoration and piece of furniture needs to be added individually. This seems to let you choose a room size and shape and it auto-populates all that stuff. That's a huge time saver.

Also, I constantly forget traps. Or I remember the trap but forget the save or the damage and have to go look it up so it would be useful to me.

I am curious about this:

Lots of red flags on this one.

Can you elaborate? I don't often back kickstarters so I'm curious.

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, it will take some practice and work to get up to speed on it, but I'm one of the ones willing to put some effort in to try and make it work, especially now that in-person gaming is getting more difficult to arrange. I'm not sure this software will fund, but it's an age where gaming electronically isn't so bad a thing.

No, it's not bad per se. But I'm a minimalist. I use Roll20 because it's free and color code and hand draw on the maps to represent the terrain. Anything more than that is too time consuming to be worth the effort. To me.

Maybe you don't play online a lot.

All my gaming since the pandemic has been online.

All my games are through VTTs. I haven't played an in-person game in 2 years.

About the same for me.

Roll20 already offers most 5e modules ready to go with dynamic lighting and everything pre-made and so does foundry. This is offering the same.

So why go with new software when at least two already exist? Especially considering the company putting out this new one is two people and hasn't done anything yet?

As far as cost, Foundry costs 50$ and roll20 requires a subscription if you want dynamic lighting.

Use Roll20 and don't use dynamic lighting. It's free.

I already pay a subscription for Inkarnate and it can take an hour to make a battle mat.

You can freehand it in Roll20 and spend less time on the peripherals.

Each decoration and piece of furniture needs to be added individually.

What an absolute nightmare. Why would you bother with that? Sounds like a waste of time for a 2-second "ooh" from the players. If that.

This seems to let you choose a room size and shape and it auto-populates all that stuff. That's a huge time saver.

Only if you insist on spending gobs of time on that stuff already. Don't spend gobs of time on that stuff. There. Save you a bunch of time. I'll take drivethrurpg gift cards.

Also, I constantly forget traps. Or I remember the trap but forget the save or the damage and have to go look it up so it would be useful to me.

So skip it if you forget it. You could set scene DCs. Just set a marker at the DC you want to use and anything the PCs want to do is rolled against that. AC? Scene DC. Guard's perception check? Scene DC. Lock difficulty? Scene DC. Detect traps? Scene DC. Disarm traps? Scene DC. All of it. Most on-level hits deal about 1/4 of the PC's max hit points. 4th level fighter? 1d10 damage. Done.

I am curious about this:

Can you elaborate? I don't often back kickstarters so I'm curious.

Not the poster you asked. But it's been said a few times in the thread. This is an unknown company with two whole people who've never produced a thing so far and they're proposing they'll be able to do something like this. Red flags.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

It's a bit of a philosophical question for me: If I use a computer to play a tabletop roleplaying game, is it still a tabletop roleplaying game or is it a computer roleplaying game? Not that a computer game is bad, it's just different. If my tabletop roleplaying game has beautiful and immersive graphics, is it not a video game? Not that that's bad, just different.

I consider myself fortunate that I have a stable inperson gaming group that has been together for 10 years. But I had to work hard for it. I had to endure two years of Pathfinder Society to find like-minded people. Not that I don't like Pathfinder Society, it's just different. And we endured Roll20 when members moved far away, and then again during the Pandemic. But the hours that I lovingly put into the graphical displays makes me think this product above is all worth it. But is it?

I'll be asking myself in the future-now: What game do I want to play?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sorry, I realise it sounds like a totally crazy idea, but some times I imagine Epic Games creating a new mode for Fortnite (as part of an ambitious project of a Epic Games' Metaverse), and this time is a virtual tabletop, and using a variant version of d20 system, and later WotC publishing the licenced TTRPG of Fortnite: Saving the world!

 

[Hussar]

Pretty cool actually. Being able to offload a lot of the DM side stuff onto the computer and automate so many things is a bit of a holy grail in VTT's. Makes running a lot easier and the DM can focus on play experience rather than futzing about with whether or not that critter has advantage or not.

I wish them the best of luck. It's good to see that VTT's are continuing to evolve. A DM run VTT with all the bells and whistles that you could bring using a computer is a very good thing.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

No, it's not bad per se. But I'm a minimalist. I use Roll20 because it's free and color code and hand draw on the maps to represent the terrain. Anything more than that is too time consuming to be worth the effort. To me.

All my gaming since the pandemic has been online.

About the same for me.

So why go with new software when at least two already exist? Especially considering the company putting out this new one is two people and hasn't done anything yet?

Use Roll20 and don't use dynamic lighting. It's free.

You can freehand it in Roll20 and spend less time on the peripherals.

What an absolute nightmare. Why would you bother with that? Sounds like a waste of time for a 2-second "ooh" from the players. If that.

Only if you insist on spending gobs of time on that stuff already. Don't spend gobs of time on that stuff. There. Save you a bunch of time. I'll take drivethrurpg gift cards.

So skip it if you forget it. You could set scene DCs. Just set a marker at the DC you want to use and anything the PCs want to do is rolled against that. AC? Scene DC. Guard's perception check? Scene DC. Lock difficulty? Scene DC. Detect traps? Scene DC. Disarm traps? Scene DC. All of it. Most on-level hits deal about 1/4 of the PC's max hit points. 4th level fighter? 1d10 damage. Done.

Not the poster you asked. But it's been said a few times in the thread. This is an unknown company with two whole people who've never produced a thing so far and they're proposing they'll be able to do something like this. Red flags.

Yeah, I have a dm who is minimalist like you are. I also have one that pulls out all the stops so it’s just a difference in style. I hate the drawing tool on roll20, i find it horrible. I’d rather have a map prepped. You should check out Owlbear. It has a better drawing tool and is also free. One of my games the dm is mostly totm and we use owlbear and jam board. Owlbear if we need tokens at all.

 

[LordEntrails]

Can you elaborate? I don't often back kickstarters so I'm curious.

Sure. Here's my thought process when I looked it over:

Total goal of $10k. Makes me say, 'ok, this makes sense if they are close to having a completed program and just need to buy some art assets or polish things up.' But they are not. And just keep in mind most good software developers can get jobs that pay well, so if this is going to be more than a hobby, I suspect this should pay them well too (which is fine). But means that $10k is only about 3 man-months of develoepr time, or less. Read on.

Virtual DM. This is talking about an AI. Or are they talking about something as linear as Never Winter Nights? Either is interesting, but their is a huge difference between the two and they don't clarify.

They say several times "many adventures are built in". But it's not clear which ones, plus there are some concerning response in the comments (see below).

The details on DM Assistant or Virtual DM implies that the system will know every rule. Which seems implausible for digital logic to be able to know and adjudicate every rule. We certainly can't decide on interpretations of dozens of rules here on ENWorld and they are going to program a computer to do it? It's ok, to me, if it doesn't, but how do the players intervene? How do houserules and rulings get incorporated? That's something that should be mentioned somewhere.

Map generator. OK, these things already exists, but they all have severe limitations. And they talk about templates, but how many templates? And can you make your own or buy more or have a community marketplace for such? They don't say, which makes me think they don't have a plan. You do not need a solution before you launch a kickstarter, but you should have a plan.

Event maker, again sounds good ont he surface, but their is no recognition that the rules of RPGs are much more complex and varied than the rules of a video game. But hey, that's just a preference, not a red flag.

First person concerns me because since they say this is a server-client architecture, are the clients rendering the first person perspectives? Or is the server doing that for all 6 players? What type of computer and bandwidth (regardless of answer) is this going to require? The computing power for this is not trivial, it can be done (look at all the FPS MMOs) but where do they talk about having the knowledge, experience or technology needed to do that?

And they are talking about supporting bots. Is this a stretch goal? included in the first release? r just an idea of something that might be possible down the road? This is more evidence that they do not have a solid development plan (remember, this is not a working program yet, just some proof of concept code, see below).

On the how to use section, they talk about having to assign scripts to every object you create in the 3D world. That is going to mean that making adventures takes many dozens of hours. And again, no talk of how the community can share these adventures with each other. Big oversight, the community makes or breaks a VTT.

On some words from the developer, take note that they believe ToEE is the original playstyle of D&D, and that is what they are trying to emulate here. That may or may not be desirable to many.

The first stretch goal is at 10x the funding goal. This is of some concern. And it's a single adventure. They are implying that it costs $90k (minus profits) to develop an adventure. They are the developers and should be able to do such an effort at less cost than the community. Are you going to put half of $90k of effort into every adventure you make?

Procedural dungeon creation is the second stretch, and is going to cost $150k (minus profits) to develop. That's actually probably pretty good estimate. But then how come they can do all of the basics for just $10k? Big red flag for me, i.e. what they are planning on delivering is nothing like what I think they are saying they are going to deliver, or they are unrealistic.

At the higher supporter levels, why do I need multiple copies of the "game" (note, they see this as a game, not a VTT). That does not match what the FAQs says (only DM needs to purchase, player use free version).

Rewards break down. Seems to include an adventure. But I thought adventures cost $90k and this one is included in the $10k goal. What's wrong with this picture?

And the Risks and Challenges section. 3 sentences and none of them addressed the risks I identified earlier. Either they don't know what they are doing, or they are unrealistic about what they want to do. Both tell me that it is highly unlikely that they will succeed.

Now check out the FAQ. It mentions tat backer will receive 2 premium adventures plus stretch goals. But their deliverables only said 1 adventure. Simple error, but this either implies lack of attention to detail, they assume they are going to hit their stretch goal, or they are unorganized and don't have a clear plan. All red flags.

And go to comments. Look at the replies from the devs. This clearly shows that all they have is an idea and some proof of concept demos. They do not have a plan. They do not have working software. They don't even have the art assets they are going to use to create their dungeons yet!

Let me say that again, the devs say they do not own the artwork they need to make any of the mapping. This means they need to spend thousands of dollars on 3D artwork, all out of that $10k funding goal. Take out artwork, take out KS fees, take out server hosting fees, and you are down to maybe $2-3k to pay the developers. A few hundred hours to get this done, from where they are at? Nope, not going to happen. Again, if they were good software developers, they would be making good wages and would want their pet project to be worth their time. This isn't worth their time or they are not good developers.

All this indicates to me that they are inexperienced developers with a dream and no experience or plan on how to achieve it. (One can assume their 12 years of experience is something like 8 & 4, not trivial, but not enough to indicate they have ever managed a s/w development project). They are going to work on learning what they need to achieve it, but all at the expense of their supporters And they are not going to reach their dream with the funding the are seeking.

Finally, another way to think of it. They are expecting to deliver in 1 year. Would you expect 2 people to work for one year for less than $5k each? (and if you look at the other number, more like $1k each).