D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[Lanefan]

For the most part, I agree- the rules are overly harsh.

But as to counterspell interaction - I do rule that you can either identify the spell (usually no check unless it's some odd or unique spell) OR counterspell it, no time to do both.

I have it that counterspell simply stops any casting in its tracks by disrupting the flow of magic, meaning you don't need to know what specific spell it is you're countering.

 

[Vaalingrade]

When one is trying to present the fictional world as a place where the characters actually live and breathe

Yeah, that's mistake one, IMO.

After the game ignite itself for the umpteenth time trying to marry whoever's flawed view of how reality on Earth works to a game that has to be playable representing a fantasy world, it's so not worth it.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I'm unsure how you could be uncertain of who was being discussed I think that should make things more clear.

It was unclear because at another point in the conversation, how aware thecharacters would be of their surroundings and what other people were up to was called into question. So your point about humans not being great at mutltitasking could have also applied to that.

5e shovels a ton of stuff onto the GM in order to avoid creating rules to carry that load so it can present a crunchy system as a flexible rules light thing to players. Sure individual bits offloaded from the rules to the gm might not be too big of a load on their own but they all add up to excess

I wouldn’t disagree with you that 5E and many other games tend to expect too much of the GM, but I don’t think that reactions are where we meed to draw the line. They’re easily managed.

 

[hawkeyefan]

"Responding once it happens" is the key phrase here; when trying to respond to something that's already happening at reaction speed, by the time your response takes place the reaction you're trying to respond to has already occurred.

That's simply not true. How many examples do you need?

OK, then, how do you make it so the last person to act (i.e. in the metagame, the last player to declare their reaction) doesn't always win?

Three things here.

First, I don't worry about someone getting a win. A reaction and the spell slot are the player's resource to use, and I let them decide how they use it. It's an expected part of the game, and so I let it play out as expected.

Second, an instance of a counterspell being counterspelled isn't all that common. Nor is it all that big a deal. If one spell going off instead of being countered is that big a deal, then I have other things to worry about.

Third, I try to create situations where reactions matter. Where deciding to use it on one thing means it won't be available for another. This way there are potential consequences for the player's decision. It's definitely not always possible, in which case, I rely on points 1 and 2 to do most of the work here.

When initative rules don't apply (as is the case with chain reactions) the choice is that one can rule things happen in FIFO or LIFO order. LIFO gives too much advantage to the last player to speak up, and FIFO also makes more logical sense in the fiction.

I don't agree with this. The initiative order determines who goes when, it's not about who speaks up first.

Also, what makes sense in the fiction should be what happens. In my opinion, you are creating the problem by wanting the fiction to match the turn order of the game. Which is odd because you're making the gamist element paramount in the fiction, which goes against what you say below:

Yep. When one is trying to present the fictional world as a place where the characters actually live and breathe, gamist concerns all too often get in the way. Sure, there's places where those concerns are valid and can't be avoided; but there's many instances where there's a clear choice between the gamist option and the realistic option, and I try to take the realistic option where possible.

I would think that not adhering so strictly to the turn order when it comes to the fiction... accepting that the turn order may limit and restrict the players more than it does the characters... would pretty much resolve the problem you have.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's simply not true. How many examples do you need?

There was a species in deepspace9 that experienced time nonlinearly & even a pretty good episode about sisko explaining the concept of linear time to them. If not linearly... how do you experience time?

 

[hawkeyefan]

There was a species in deepspace9 that experienced time nonlinearly & even a pretty good episode about sisko explaining the concept of linear time to them. If not linearly... how do you experience time?

As a flat circle, obviously.

 

[Voadam]

There was a species in deepspace9 that experienced time nonlinearly & even a pretty good episode about sisko explaining the concept of linear time to them. If not linearly... how do you experience time?

In 5e D&D combat? Each person's perspective sequentially one at a time including possible interrupts for a six second period. Then repeat.

With the understanding that it is sort of happening sequentially, sort of simultaneously.

 

[tetrasodium]

In 5e D&D combat? Each person's perspective sequentially one at a time

That's linear time

including possible interrupts

These exist nonlinear by reaching back in time LIFOin ways that create a paradox that needs to be ignored.

for a six second period. Then repeat.

This would be linear too since the events of each round are sequential.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't agree with this. The initiative order determines who goes when, it's not about who speaks up first.

Reread what I wrote: I was specifically referring to times when the initiative order does not apply. Multiple reactions within the same initiative pip are one such case.

Also, what makes sense in the fiction should be what happens. In my opinion, you are creating the problem by wanting the fiction to match the turn order of the game.

I want the characters' actions in the fiction to reflect the declaration sequence at the table, in situations where initiative order doesn't apply.

 

[pemerton]

Reread what I wrote: I was specifically referring to times when the initiative order does not apply. Multiple reactions within the same initiative pip are one such case.

5e has no concept of an "initiative pip". To the best of my knowledge, that has not been part of any D&D initiative system except the one set out (somewhat obscurely) in Gygax's DMG.