The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[brehobit]

And in this case, since "epic" clearly means something different in substance from 4E to 3E, what is the problem?

Could you provide an explanation of that difference? They look pretty much the same from here.

 

[chaotix42]

It has an attack roll, yes?

Yup. And hits every target within 20 squares!

 

[hong]

Could you provide an explanation of that difference? They look pretty much the same from here.

The narrow definition of "epic" is level 21+. But in 3E, where level is closely tied to hit points (class differences notwithstanding), it's is also an indicator of overall power. In fact, it's just about the ONLY indicator you have within the encounter design framework. Monsters with more levels/HD have higher CR than those with fewer HD, other things being equal.

The encounter design system in 4E uses not just level, but also monster type designators: minion, elite, solo, leader, etc. Because of this, you cannot just look at a monster's level and make a judgement on how powerful it is. You have to consider its type as well, and minions in particular will be much less powerful than their base level indicates.

 

[brehobit]

Yup. And hits every target within 20 squares!

Yeah, but it can still miss. Against high-level minions, it will miss a lot. The Fighter won't.

 

[chaotix42]

Yeah, but it can still miss. Against high-level minions, it will miss a lot. The Fighter won't.

Miss a lot? Against minions?

 

[almagest]

I'm fairly sure you didn't answer my question. Does he know he's used the power and can't use it again without a "long rest"?

The same way a spell mysteriously disappears from a wizard's memory when he casts it. Or the same way a swordsage can't recover maneuvers without spending a couple minutes flourishing his weapons or whatever. Why are you calling out inconsistencies that have been always been present in one form or another?

I think this tries to get at my first question. So the _character_ is aware that he can't do it again without a long rest, and the reason is that it was so draining. He _can_ do a higher level daily however. I'm not sure I buy that, but it's one way to run it.

Again, why is it ok that a wizard cast a level 5 daily, then follow it up with a level 15? It's the same concept, whether you call it arcane or martial.

Don't own the PHB, just looked it over. I'll see if I get a chance to read that later.

Once you read through the core books the rules become more clear. It's also really helpful to run a mock encounter or two, as well, to see rules in action.

 

[hong]

Miss a lot? Against minions?

Minions have level-appropriate AC and defenses. They are NOT auto-hits for high-level guys.

 

[brehobit]

Miss a lot? Against minions?

Sure,
Minions tend to have reasonable defenses for their level. Just no hit points. So a 20th level minion will get missed a lot by a 10th level wizard.

Mark

 

[chaotix42]

Yeah, your chances of missing a 20th level enemy when you're level 10 are pretty good.

I don't see 20th level minions being sent against level 10 PCs though. It's entering the same realm of 26th level minions vs 5th level PCs.

 

[almagest]

While I generally agree, I think being able to auto-kill any minion who starts next to you during the entire combat will be quite powerful. You close with them, they die. If they bunch up, they all die.

Just saying

That's the point, though. They're MEANT to be mowed down in huge numbers. They're meant to replace groups of monsters of 4 or 5 CR below your party level in 3e. You could kill the majority of those monsters in 1 or 2 hits in 3e, but they couldn't touch you on anything but a natural 20. Minions still die quickly, but can actually DO something during combat now -- like, weaken/distract you for/from that brute charging at you.