The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[brehobit]

It's an artifact of the system. The other option would be to constantly increase the minimum damage the PCs do every round, to the point where having "only" 20 hit points means every time the fighter hits you, you die. Of course, if you do that, what's a boss monster for heroic becomes a minion at epic, and I think they wanted to avoid that sort of thing.

- Brian

Eh,
I'd have given high-level minions "resist all" equal to about their level by 2. Or maybe level-10.

Mark

 

[brehobit]

And one more

Still want an answer to the following questions:

Say a fighter has a single daily attack that can hit folks in a burst. He uses it in a fight. There is another fight coming up where such an ability will make the fight easy.

#1 Does he realize he has no chance of pulling off that attack? If so, he may well choose to avoid that encounter.
#2 If #1 is "yes" what exactly does the character know? How does he justify it in character?
#3 If the answer is "no" and he heads out to that fight, does he realize that getting baddies set up for such a burst is a bad plan?

As a board game, the daily system is just fine. As an RPG where you are discussing things in character (including potential tactics) it's weird at best.

And frankly, this is something the rules should touch on IMO. 3e rules answered these questions about casters. 4e rules needs to answer them too.

 

[DonTadow]

The good is its pretty, like MACS are. I've come to grips that we live n the pretty world.

The Bad, i got to the races. And then the optomisim i had and the hope i started to regain was demolished by the descriptions of the races.

" to be quick, quiet, and wild.
✦ to lead your companions through the deep woods
and pepper your enemies with arrows.
✦ to be a member of a race that favors the ranger,
rogue, and cleric classes."

The Ugly, when i recruit players from now on its going to take me a while to deprogram them from the 4e dnd 4 dummies mindset. I can already imagine the conversations

" but she's an elf, isn't she suppose to be good at taking us through deep woods and firing arrows... "

And all the new batman tiefling pcs.

 

[Nail]

Still want an answer to the following questions:
#1 Does he realize he has no chance of pulling off that attack? If so, he may well choose to avoid that encounter.

Yes, he knows. Just as a caster knows he no longer has access to a spell.

#2 If #1 is "yes" what exactly does the character know? How does he justify it in character?

He knows he can only pull the "Exploit" off once in a while => usually once a day, assuming combats every day.

#3 If the answer is "no" and he heads out to that fight, does he realize that getting baddies set up for such a burst is a bad plan?

The answer is not "No."

As a board game, the daily system is just fine. As an RPG where you are discussing things in character (including potential tactics) it's weird at best.

"Weird" in what sense? In the sense of "How life is supposed to work in a Fantasy World"?

If it makes you feel better (and clearly, that's what you are looking for), pretend the Ftr has an internal, non-magical power source. Let's call it "Chi". He uses this source of internal non-magical power for his exploits. Encounter powers only use Chi temporarily, and after a few minutes the Chi returns. Daily powers use larger amounts of CHi, and it takes an extended rest for it to return.

Why is that so difficult to justify in a Fantasy World?

And frankly, this is something the rules should touch on IMO. 3e rules answered these questions about casters. 4e rules needs to answer them too.

You've got some rose-coloerd glasses for 3e, eh? Gimme a pair.

3e did not answer the spell casting rationale well. Put another way: Vancian magic does NOT model the spell casters in Fantasy Literature very well. This has been discussed countless times.

 

[almagest]

Still want an answer to the following questions:

Say a fighter has a single daily attack that can hit folks in a burst. He uses it in a fight. There is another fight coming up where such an ability will make the fight easy.

#1 Does he realize he has no chance of pulling off that attack? If so, he may well choose to avoid that encounter.
#2 If #1 is "yes" what exactly does the character know? How does he justify it in character?
#3 If the answer is "no" and he heads out to that fight, does he realize that getting baddies set up for such a burst is a bad plan?

As a board game, the daily system is just fine. As an RPG where you are discussing things in character (including potential tactics) it's weird at best.

And frankly, this is something the rules should touch on IMO. 3e rules answered these questions about casters. 4e rules needs to answer them too.

#1 Martial powers are known as exploits. You use them when circumstances are right. If you use the wrong power at the wrong time, then encounter a situation that's better suited to it, you've made a mistake. Not the game system.

#2 Again, martial powers exploit a particular situation that may or may not occur. Daily martial powers are a tremendous drain on your physical and mental resources. Your character likely knows that he can't pull it off again, because it was so draining to do it in the first place, and he's already tired from fighting, or something to that effect. Your character isn't going to hurt or kill himself to prevent himself from getting hurt or killed.

#3 It's not a bad plan if you have a way to deal with it. There are plenty of things "IRL" that look to be bad plans but have a reason behind them. Example: Intentionally walking a hitter in baseball to load the bases. A grand slam is possible, hurting your chances of winning greatly, but you also set up a force at any base, and the possiblity of a double/triple play.

4e does answer questions about daily powers. It's on page 54 of the PHB. You also have some pretty good at-will and encounter powers, you know. It's not like all you can do are daily powers and once those are gone, you only get melee basic attacks.

 

[Nail]

My point about the level 5 ability taking out the level 26 minion was that the ability allows him to kill something (automatically) that he really shouldn't be able to.

Two things:

Who is the only and final arbiter of what monsters the PCs face?

In 3e, wasn't it also possible to kill foes far above your level?

Again, if you're selling those 3.xe Rose Colored Glasses, I'll buy a pair.

 

[almagest]

Two things:
In 3e, wasn't it also possible to kill foes far above your level?

I remember quite a few games where greenbound summons, DMMersist Clerics, and save or die wizards with absurd save DCs took out quite a few things we weren't supposed to fight yet...

 

[hong]

Nail, your change of heart regarding 4E is rather... sudden.

 

[Nail]

Nail, your change of heart regarding 4E is rather... sudden.

Err....?

Really? Uhm....did I say "4e sucks" in my sleep at some point? Source?

 

[brehobit]

#1 Martial powers are known as exploits. You use them when circumstances are right. If you use the wrong power at the wrong time, then encounter a situation that's better suited to it, you've made a mistake. Not the game system.

I'm fairly sure you didn't answer my question. Does he know he's used the power and can't use it again without a "long rest"?

#2 Again, martial powers exploit a particular situation that may or may not occur. Daily martial powers are a tremendous drain on your physical and mental resources. Your character likely knows that he can't pull it off again, because it was so draining to do it in the first place, and he's already tired from fighting, or something to that effect. Your character isn't going to hurt or kill himself to prevent himself from getting hurt or killed.

I think this tries to get at my first question. So the _character_ is aware that he can't do it again without a long rest, and the reason is that it was so draining. He _can_ do a higher level daily however. I'm not sure I buy that, but it's one way to run it.

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4e does answer questions about daily powers. It's on page 54 of the PHB. You also have some pretty good at-will and encounter powers, you know. It's not like all you can do are daily powers and once those are gone, you only get melee basic attacks.

Don't own the PHB, just looked it over. I'll see if I get a chance to read that later.

Mark