The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Nail]

I remember quite a few games where greenbound summons, DMMersist Clerics, and save or die wizards with absurd save DCs took out quite a few things we weren't supposed to fight yet...

Exactly.

In the last advanture I played as a Player in 3.xe, my PC (Clr 18 or so) took out the Githyanki Lich Queen Wiz 25.......three different times, often before my other party members could even react.

Punching above your weight was common-place (yawn) in 3.xe. Check out the Optimization Boards. I don't find it surprising that you can do the same in 4e. ....In fact, I'm looking forward to it.

However: Since the DM controls what monsters are where, a low level PC capping a super-high-level minions doesn't really fall into that category. YMMV, I suppose.

 

[brehobit]

Two things:

Who is the only and final arbiter of what monsters the PCs face?

In 3e, wasn't it also possible to kill foes far above your level?

Again, if you're selling those 3.xe Rose Colored Glasses, I'll buy a pair.

#1 Sure, I agree. But putting up 5th level chars against 10th level minions seems fairly reasonable. But these auto-hitting powers will have a significant impact on such encounters.
#2 Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a power/ability that allowed a 5th level (or 1st level) PC to auto-kill an epic creature. And if there were, I think it would have been an issue for people.

It's a problem that didn't exist in 3.x. It's not a major problem (fighter dailies are a major problem OTOH), but it is a problem.

 

[hong]

Err....?

Really? Uhm....did I say "4e sucks" in my sleep at some point? Source?

I may possibly have confused you with someone else. Yes, that "Mail" guy!

 

[hong]

#2 Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a power/ability that allowed a 5th level (or 1st level) PC to auto-kill an epic creature.

There is also no power in 4E that lets a low-level PC auto-kill an epic creature. Assuming, anyway, that you're using the plain-English meaning of epic, because cross-edition comparison of terms of art makes no sense.

 

[brehobit]

There is also no power in 4E that lets a low-level PC auto-kill an epic creature. Assuming, anyway, that you're using the plain-English meaning of epic, because cross-edition comparison of terms of art makes no sense.

OK,
Both 3e and 4e have a notion of epic. Both are for above 20th level. The 4e version of epic appears to be intended to replace the 3e.

If you prefer you can replace "epic" with "above 20th level".

 

[almagest]

#1 Sure, I agree. But putting up 5th level chars against 10th level minions seems fairly reasonable. But these auto-hitting powers will have a significant impact on such encounters.

Not really. 4 minions=one monster. You'd still have everything else in the encounter to deal with. And if it's an all-minion encounter, chances are you won't kill all 16-25 minions with that one power. They're all not going to blindly attack you if they just saw 2 or 3 of their friends die by just coming near you.

 

[hong]

OK,
Both 3e and 4e have a notion of epic. Both are for above 20th level. The 4e version of epic appears to be intended to replace the 3e.

If you prefer you can replace "epic" with "above 20th level".

And in this case, since "epic" clearly means something different in substance from 4E to 3E, what is the problem?

 

[chaotix42]

Hey brehobit, go check out Chain Lightning. Minions won't know what hit 'em. >: )

 

[brehobit]

Not really. 4 minions=one monster. You'd still have everything else in the encounter to deal with. And if it's an all-minion encounter, chances are you won't kill all 16-25 minions with that one power. They're all not going to blindly attack you if they just saw 2 or 3 of their friends die by just coming near you.

While I generally agree, I think being able to auto-kill any minion who starts next to you during the entire combat will be quite powerful. You close with them, they die. If they bunch up, they all die.

Just saying

 

[brehobit]

Hey brehobit, go check out Chain Lightning. Minions won't know what hit 'em. >: )

It has an attack roll, yes?