D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Paul Farquhar]

Origin feat?

Humans get two, or species (e.g. githzeri) subclass, core class for warlocks. Not free, but relatively cheap.

Shields also very over rated. Its just damage

And not having to make a con save.

And I’ve seen plenty of casters dieing from “just damage”. Smart enemies focus fire on them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Humans get two, or species (e.g. githzeri) subclass, core class for warlocks. Not free, but relatively cheap.

And not having to make a con save.

And I’ve seen plenty of casters doing from “just damage”. Smart enemies focus fire on them.

Im not claiming no cleric will ever have shield. Its a high cost. Warlocks can get it easy but its a waste of a slot to use your real spells on it. Warlocks also not a cleric.

Alerts really good so what's also great 100% of the time is initiative manipulation.

Lucky is also really good.

And magic initiate :wizard shield is also competing with other spells.

 

[FrogReaver]

IMO bless only looks okay because there’s no level 1 spell that scales offensively in a level 1 slot. But that doesn’t make it a good or even above average spell. It’s not worthless, but it’s so rarely going to have any real impact.

Control spells scale innately due to the fact that your save dc increases and the targets actions often become stronger as you level. Same for a spell like shield really. This is also what makes healing word worthwhile (allies actions become worth more as they level and it doesn’t cost your action.

There’s some niche damage spells like magic missile. Auto damage is a nice niche. Bless has an okay niche vs high ac enemies. But having a niche doesn’t make something a good spell.

Another fun fact. Bless is worse in tier 1 than direct damage spells. You’ll almost always be better off using guiding bolt or magic missile respectively. Such spells drop off a bit in tier 2 but bless does improve a bit there. Still fairly close, especially since damage now is inherently greater than damage later when comparing similar amounts.

 

[FrogReaver]

They can get it but opportunity cost is high.

Bless isn't always the ideal play. Its never a bad play. No risk eg a failed save or bossed attack roll.

Guiding bolt miss is way to frequent lol.

Wasn’t it just a few pages back that you argued that wizards get command/etc easily? If so I think you just justify your point however you can at the time without really considering the points you’ve made in adjacent topics recently.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah but when has strict adherence to the facts worked!?

My opinion is Bless is a good spell but is not always the best option - well balanced in fact. Although it is somewhat hampered by my players forgetting they have it.

I used to think it was a good spell and maybe in 2014 it was due to -5/+10 and much less accuracy/advantage than now, but I no longer think it is in 2024. I’d rate it a C at most for levels 1-10.

I mean there’s a reason practically no Paladin typically uses bless. It’s because attack action + smite is virtually always better than it at offense. Heck. Even if an enemy has a hold person cast on your ally, you’ll have a better chance of ending the effect by just attacking and smiting to force high concentration saves than you will trying to end the effect with blesses save bonus.

 

[FrogReaver]

They can get it but opportunity cost is high.

Bless isn't always the ideal play. Its never a bad play. No risk eg a failed save or bossed attack roll.

Guiding bolt miss is way to frequent lol.

Bless can certainly do nothing for the entire encounter. Giving a +1d4 bonus that doesn’t ever change anything is nothing.

 

[ECMO3]

It is.

Of course. It became relevant when you startet to claim it is good at level 8 in a very unusual situation.

Strawman.

At level 1. Very likely.
At level 8. It doesn't have to.

Not at all. Someone recebtly explained in a video, how much impact a single creature added to a balanced encounter has. So if you kill one creature early, it has the opposite effect.

Isn't it ironic that you handpicked an unrealistic scenario and need to dismiss other spells just because...

of course it deals more damage if you compare the damage output against the turns the enemy has. If the enemy needs to skip a turn doing nothing, your whole party just got a free round of beating.

Or wait. In your scenario the enemy seems to do nothing anyway...

Yeah. It is "grovel" now. Different name for the same thing... wasn't that hard to translate...

Never said that. Never thought that. Do I really have to expain everything to you? Just for your information: your explanation was not needed. As everyone knwos this.

The rogue has less attacks. But go on shift the goalpost more. Was your unrealistic example anyway.

Funny. I never said that. I explicitely said bless is a good spell. Great at times. But it is not always the best use of resources (which is an action and a spell slot).
An attack or a cantrip at least uses no spell slot. And in your example the net worth of that slot was 10 average damage over 3 turns. Congrarulations.


So why are you trying to find unrealistic examples to prove something you don't think is true? Why do you argue if you agree with me?

Ok so you started by talking about Bless and how it only changes one attack in 8 and a Cleric was better using a Cantrip or attacking. I didn't think that is true and illustrated why with numbers, now it seems you don't either since you are saying Bless is a good spell.

The real thing I disagree with is the following
"Which more or less nullifies any benefit gained by bless offensively if cast at a level 1 spell ....what could a different spell (or cantrip or attack) have done for the party instead."

I illustrated, with an example, what an attack could have done instead and it was not as much damage as it would have been with a Cantrip or an attack.

I never intended to get into an arguement about whether Bless was better than Spirit Guardians or Command, because it isn't.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wasn’t it just a few pages back that you argued that wizards get command/etc easily? If so I think you just justify your point however you can at the time without really considering the points you’ve made in adjacent topics recently.

Nope if I'm a wizard opportunity cost is to high.

Commands great but Wizard gets tashas.

Clerics do they want shield and to blow a feat? Maybe bit its competing with other feats and spells.

Specifically tashas, jump, shield, find familiar maybe chromatic orb and non core spells like absorb elements or that Strixhaven one. All these have pros ad cons.

As cleric shield would only be a pick for me of DM liked using focus fire.

And since I'm getting via origin feat thats a hard call.

So can clerics get shield yes. Its not really a good comparison vs bless. Most clerics probably wont take it and if you do there's real opportunity cost.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope if I'm a wizard opportunity cost is to high.

Commands great but Wizard gets tashas.

Clerics do they want shield and to blow a feat? Maybe bit its competing with other feats and spells.

Specifically tashas, jump, shield, find familiar maybe chromatic orb and non core spells like absorb elements or that Strixhaven one. All these have pros ad cons.

As cleric shield would only be a pick for me of DM liked using focus fire.

And since I'm getting via origin feat thats a hard call.

So can clerics get shield yes. Its not really a good comparison vs bless. Most clerics probably wont take it and if you do there's real opportunity cost.

I'm unsure whether you are saying you didn't argue that or that you did but this specific scenario is different.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm unsure whether you are saying you didn't argue that or that you did but this specific scenario is different.

I wasn't making an argument tgat a wizard shoukd take command via nagic initiate cleric.

I would take bless before I did that as wizards have similar enough spells to command. Eg sone sort of wisdom targeting disabling spell.