D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

Accuracy hasn’t changed much????
What the heck?

Numbers are the same.

Not everyone used the -5/+10 feats all the time.

 

[FrogReaver]

Numbers are the same.

Not everyone used the -5/+10 feats all the time.

There’s also way more advantage. Heroic inspiration. Vex and topple weapon masteries. Etc.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It might be, but the Cleric in the example is getting a 25% chance to hit without any bonus against a high AC.

Great.

What Cleric spell are you going to cast with a 1st level slot that does automatic damage on a failed save? I don't know of any.

Why use a lvl 1 spell? At level 8 you have up to level 4 spells. Ome of them spirit guardians.

There are a few 1st level AOEs and spells from other classes that do this, but I don't think they are beating Bless either over 3 rounds either even with a failed save.

Depends. Burning hands is not bad of it hits a few creatures. If it takes one or two mooks down or helps another player to do that, it prevents damage against frontliners. Front loaded damage is worth more than backloaded. But again, why use a level 1 spell?

Dissonant Whispers and Burning Hands do 10.5 on a failed save, which would still be less over 3 rounds than using Bless.

Against a single foe, yes. Whem does that happen? And if dissonant whispers hits, you grant a few AOEs

What spell are you going to use for this?

A higher level spell, if the enemy is a serious threat? Otherwise, it doen't matter at all.

This argument works against any 1st level offensive spell you could use and it also assumes the Blessed characters are not getting any other damage bonuses.

As I said, in certain situations and if you want to conserve spell slots, bless is great.

Like I said that is the same for any 1st level offensive spell I can think of, Cleric or not.

Again. Why use a level 1 spell.

They will not have a negative effect because a hit is always more damage than a miss

It has a negative impact on your calculation, as misses still do damage. So the net increase of another hit is lessened.

With a failed save or a vex weapon regardless of the save, but both the first hit and the attacks with advantage are more likely with Bless.

Agreed. I still prefer topple because it helps the whole party.

If the enemy is a humanoid, yes obviously, but that is a 2nd level spell and a lot more conditional due to the creature type requirement.

Correct. I assumed a humanoid in plate armor and a shield is the most probable creature with AC22.

If you are looking at 1st level control spells I would say Tasha's Hideous Laughter is the one to compare it to and I would put it ahead of Bless even with the repeated saves with advantage on each hit, but not a Cleric spell so we are still searching for something a Cleric can cast at level 1 to outperform Bless.

If you assume a failed save: just use command. Have the command be either "flee", "approach" or "cower".
Either you can put the creature out of position, getting opportunity atracks or allow attacks with advantage for a round. In either case, the creature does nothing for a turn. (I guess we still assume punching a solo creature with high AC and nothing else).
So now, you effectively gave everyone effectively an extra round of attacks. That means 5 more attacks with an average hit chance of 25%, which means you get more than one an extra hit in and then you also get either opportunity attacks with advantage. All without risking to lose bless due to damage, all with leaving your concentration slot free.

And the question remains: if the enemy is no threat, why use any spell? If the enemy is a real threat, why don't you use a higher level spell?

I still can imagine situations where bless is very good. Probably the best choice. But it never was or never is generally the best spell for all situations.

 

[Maxperson]

Haven't they been doing that though? How much of the game really supports high level play?

Not enough.

 

[Maxperson]

They're fools of they cater to that q.5 million over the 13.5 million.

So go back over that very short post of mine and see if you can find where I said or implied that they should cater to the 10%.

 

[Zardnaar]

There’s also way more advantage. Heroic inspiration. Vex and topple weapon masteries. Etc.

True.

 

[Zardnaar]

So go back over that very short post of mine and see if you can find where I said or implied that they should cater to the 10%.

All I originally said was 1% hot epic levels, 10 lvl 10.

Its one reason I rate classes heavily towards first 10 levels or 6.

 

[ECMO3]

Again. Why use a level 1 spell.

Because comparing Bless against Spirit Guardians or Gaurdian of Faith is kind of irrelevant.

Your hypothesis implies is Bless is a waste, a waste of an action and a waste of resources. Comparing it to a high level spell is not much value.

Are we going to say Hold Person or Fear is a useless spell because Wish is better?

Depends. Burning hands is not bad of it hits a few creatures. If it takes one or two mooks down or helps another player to do that, it prevents damage against frontliners. Front loaded damage is worth more than backloaded. But again, why use a level 1 spell?

Burning hands is a very small AOE with 10 damage on a failed save. It is possible it will do better, but not likely.

Against a single foe, yes. Whem does that happen? And if dissonant whispers hits, you grant a few AOEs

Well against multiple foes Bless is better than virtually any spell that targets a single creature for 1 round. The AOEs are nice, but in terms of damage you need a failed save and a reaction and positioned to get them and even with them, I still don't think that is going to outdamage Bless over 3 rounds.

If you assume a failed save: just use command. Have the command be either "flee", "approach" or "cower".

2024 Command is an extremely powerful spell and a better spell than Bless generally, even at 1st level and it also upcasts extremely well. Buyt in a direct comparison in terms of damage it is not going to fair well. Bless is +1d4 on every attack 3 characters make while the cleric maintains concentration. Command is going to take an enemy out of the fight on a failed save and potentially give AOOs or give melee characters advantage for 1 turn, but that is not going to be as much damage as Bless will provide over 3 rounds, especially considering the damage lost in round 1 because the Cleric did not attack.

Also "Cower" is not usable any more in 2024 FWIW.

It has a negative impact on your calculation, as misses still do damage. So the net increase of another hit is lessened.

It reduces the difference in damage, but the damage will be higher using Bless than not using Bless and attacking (with Blessed Strikes).

Which brings up another point - I blessed the Cleric and 2 Fighters that did not use any resources or damage buffs in the example. If I blessed a Rogue or a Monk the difference would have been quite a bit greater.

I still can imagine situations where bless is very good. Probably the best choice. But it never was or never is generally the best spell for all situations.

It is not the best for all situations and I never said it was. I took issue with the statement that attacking or using a Cantrip is always better. I do not think that is the case, as a matter of fact it is rarely the case.

 

[Stalker0]

What stats have shown this?

Here you go. Its 2014 data but its everything you would ever want to know about multiclassing:

Thread 'Who's Multiclassing With Who? More D&D Beyond Stats!'

Feb 17, 2019

D&D Beyond has released yet more stats! We've already seen the most common adventures, classes by tier, and subclasses. This time it's a look at popular multiclass combinations! They use "active characters" which are those not deleted or suspended, and which there is "some reasonable sense that maybe they're played". There was a LOT of data whizzing by very fast in the Twitch stream, so here it is broken down.

​

It turns out that 11% of level 2+ characters are multiclass and 27% of level 20 characters are multiclass. This varies by class, of...

• Morrus
• Replies: 53
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Because comparing Bless against Spirit Guardians or Gaurdian of Faith is kind of irrelevant.

It is.

Your hypothesis implies is Bless is a waste, a waste of an action and a waste of resources. Comparing it to a high level spell is not much value.

Of course. It became relevant when you startet to claim it is good at level 8 in a very unusual situation.

Are we going to say Hold Person or Fear is a useless spell because Wish is better?

Strawman.

Burning hands is a very small AOE with 10 damage on a failed save. It is possible it will do better, but not likely.

At level 1. Very likely.
At level 8. It doesn't have to.

Well against multiple foes Bless is better than virtually any spell that targets a single creature for 1 round. The AOEs are nice, but in terms of damage you need a failed save and a reaction and positioned to get them and even with them, I still don't think that is going to outdamage Bless over 3 rounds.

Not at all. Someone recebtly explained in a video, how much impact a single creature added to a balanced encounter has. So if you kill one creature early, it has the opposite effect.

2024 Command is an extremely powerful spell and a better spell than Bless generally, even at 1st level and it also upcasts extremely well. Buyt in a direct comparison in terms of damage it is not going to fair well. Bless is +1d4 on every attack 3 characters make while the cleric maintains concentration. Command is going to take an enemy out of the fight on a failed save and potentially give AOOs or give melee characters advantage for 1 turn, but that is not going to be as much damage as Bless will provide over 3 rounds, especially considering the damage lost in round 1 because the Cleric did not attack.

Isn't it ironic that you handpicked an unrealistic scenario and need to dismiss other spells just because...

of course it deals more damage if you compare the damage output against the turns the enemy has. If the enemy needs to skip a turn doing nothing, your whole party just got a free round of beating.

Or wait. In your scenario the enemy seems to do nothing anyway...

Also "Cower" is not usable any more in 2024 FWIW.

Yeah. It is "grovel" now. Different name for the same thing... wasn't that hard to translate...

It reduces the difference in damage, but the damage will be higher using Bless than not using Bless and attacking (with Blessed Strikes).

Never said that. Never thought that. Do I really have to expain everything to you? Just for your information: your explanation was not needed. As everyone knwos this.

Which brings up another point - I blessed the Cleric and 2 Fighters that did not use any resources or damage buffs in the example. If I blessed a Rogue or a Monk the difference would have been quite a bit greater.

The rogue has less attacks. But go on shift the goalpost more. Was your unrealistic example anyway.

It is not the best for all situations and I never said it was. I took issue with the statement that attacking or using a Cantrip is always better.

Funny. I never said that. I explicitely said bless is a good spell. Great at times. But it is not always the best use of resources (which is an action and a spell slot).
An attack or a cantrip at least uses no spell slot. And in your example the net worth of that slot was 10 average damage over 3 turns. Congrarulations.

I do not think that is the case, as a matter of fact it is rarely the case.

So why are you trying to find unrealistic examples to prove something you don't think is true? Why do you argue if you agree with me?