D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[UngeheuerLich]

Have a look at sone other monsters.

5E about 4 times the hp generally, double 3.5.

A 10 level BG3 Evoker with all the items proportionally deals about the same as a 10th level 2E.

Comparison is close level 1, 3+2E. Kobolds and Gobibs are about the only typical low level stuff 5E might win on.

Avg 2E hp cs 5th
Orc 5 vs 15
Ogre avg 18 vs 52
Gnoll 9 vs 22

That looks like orc has 3 times as many hp in 5e than 2e...
Ogre has about 3 times as much hp than a 2e ogre.
Gnoll too.

5e MM deal 3 times as much damage as 2e one. Checks out.

So depends on level. 3+ its 2E

Please tell me something I do not know.

, 1&2 almost a wash 5E might win slightly.

Yes.

A lvl 1 MM 2E was crap though.

A level 1 wizard was totally crap except for the one sleep spell.
2 times if you were a specialist.

In 5e you can at least cast the magic missile spell 3 times a day and you have cantrips.

5E one did well once in current campaign. Vs Stirges on DoSI. Then got dumped.

So pretty much worse at all levels right down the line debatable at 1&2. Marginally better than bad is best case scenario.

You make a big mistake comparing spells this way:
You can only really compare spells at the exact level where you gain it and one lev thereafter maybe.

5e spell system is fundamently different than 2e or 3e, because spells don't scale with caster level. And even if upcast, the damage gain is usually not keeping up with spells that are naturally higher level.

So comparing magic missile at level 3+ is fundamently flawed. Of course, a spell that naturally deals 2d4+2 damage will comparatively outdamage a spell that is comparable to a 1d4+1 spell.

And everyone can see that if you upcast it by even adding 1d4+1 to 3d4+3 is not the same than adding 1d4+1 to 1d4+1

(that is 100% increase for free vs 33.3% increase for an extra investment).

So I am really confused about what you try to prove here with calculations that everyone can do in their head.
To disaprove something noone even slightly hinted at?

For your convenience: I said, 3d4+3 automatic damage is a serious threat to a level 1 PC. Not more, not less.
And before that, ECMO sad that magic missile, due to his totally unrealistic assumption of Monsters having AC22 to prove how well bless performs said, that magic missile in this situation is nearly as good as a bless spell.

 

[Zardnaar]

That looks like orc has 3 times as many hp in 5e than 2e...
Ogre has about 3 times as much hp than a 2e ogre.
Gnoll too.

5e MM deal 3 times as much damage as 2e one. Checks out.

Please tell me something I do not know.

Yes.

A level 1 wizard was totally crap except for the one sleep spell.
2 times if you were a specialist.

In 5e you can at least cast the magic missile spell 3 times a day and you have cantrips.


You make a big mistake comparing spells this way:
You can only really compare spells at the exact level where you gain it and one lev thereafter maybe.

5e spell system is fundamently different than 2e or 3e, because spells don't scale with caster level. And even if upcast, the damage gain is usually not keeping up with spells that are naturally higher level.

So comparing magic missile at level 3+ is fundamently flawed. Of course, a spell that naturally deals 2d4+2 damage will comparatively outdamage a spell that is comparable to a 1d4+1 spell.

And everyone can see that if you upcast it by even adding 1d4+1 to 3d4+3 is not the same than adding 1d4+1 to 1d4+1

(that is 100% increase for free vs 33.3% increase for an extra investment).

So I am really confused about what you try to prove here with calculations that everyone can do in their head.
To disaprove something noone even slightly hinted at?

For your convenience: I said, 3d4+3 automatic damage is a serious threat to a level 1 PC. Not more, not less.
And before that, ECMO sad that magic missile, due to his totally unrealistic assumption of Monsters having AC22 to prove how well bless performs said, that magic missile in this situation is nearly as good as a bless spell.

Well theresa bot mire going on. 5E attacks do a lot more damage as well. Even in 2E level 1 or 2 wont last long. In 5E thats two or 3 sessions. Basically you suck at blasting comparatively from here on out. And MM is kinda vad in 5E as well. Unless the campaign theme is stirges.

But thats also part of the problem. If it is a problem. Some people loje it after all hell probably a majority. High damage high hp high hp Regain. Directly contributes to 5E playstyle.

4E is 2/3 with low damage comparatively.

So yeah 3.5 may actually get that balance right its basically in the middle of to extremes.

Perfect edition of D&D 6-10 levels, no dailies, 3.5 hp/damage, no customers!!! We proved it mathematically what can go wrong!!.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well theresa bot mire going on.

What are you typing at times?

5E attacks do a lot more damage as well. Even in 2E level 1 or 2 wont last long.

Never said that.
Not 3 times as much as 2e ones at levels 1 and 2. A fighter with 16 str and weapon specialization did 1d8+3.

In 5E thats two or 3 sessions.

Yes. And your point is?

Basically you suck at blasting comparatively from here on out.

How does that connect to what I said?

And MM is kinda vad in 5E as well.

Kinda "vad"? I don't understand that slang.

Unless the campaign theme is stirges.

Yeah. Beware.

But thats also part of the problem. If it is a problem. Some people loje it after all hell probably a majority. High damage high hp high hp Regain. Directly contributes to 5E playstyle.

???
I am really not able to follow you. I don't understand enough words to make sense of that.

4E is 2/3 with low damage comparatively.

How does that relate to 5e?

So yeah 3.5 may actually get that balance right its basically in the middle of to extremes.

No. 3.5 did nothing right. Direct damage in 3.5 was a trap. Save or suck and prebuffing was so powerful that direct damage was comparatively useless.

Perfect edition of D&D 6-10 levels, no dailies, 3.5 hp/damage, no customers!!! We proved it mathematically what can go wrong!!.

???

I get the feeling you quotes someone that has blocked me or who I have blocked...

 

[Moving Pictures]

This thread really strikes at what I see as one of the weaknesses of 5e. I am dabbling as a player in 5e, and the character build part of the game is stupid complex, and the magic is overflowing. Everybody gets magic. It's like Oprah Winfrey at Christmas. That's the reason why mages are weaker - because they aren't special.

 

[Stalker0]

5e spell system is fundamently different than 2e or 3e, because spells don't scale with caster level. And even if upcast, the damage gain is usually not keeping up with spells that are naturally higher level.

This is also why 5e's system tends to favor control over damage. 5e's spell damage does does not autoscale (which is the principal measure of damage) but its DC do scale (which is the principal measure of control).

In 3e you have all these spells, but you only have a few control spells at a high enough DC to really put out in a big combat. In 5e, take your pick, everything has your best DC ready to go.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is also why 5e's system tends to favor control over damage. 5e's spell damage does does not autoscale (which is the principal measure of damage) but its DC do scale (which is the principal measure of control).

It is also a measure of damage. Statistically. Not increasing damage/duration AND DC is what prevents wizards in 5e to be as quadratic as 3.5 ones.

Theoretically 3.5 actually only increases DC for higher level spell slots.
So in a certain way, 3.5 and 5e has damage amd control flipped.

In 3.5, you needed your highest slots for control and reasonable damage could be dealt with lower level ones. And in 5e, low level control spells are still doing fine against single targets but you need your highest level spells (slots and memorized) for damage if you want to actually do enough to have it matter against the tougher opponents.

In 3e you have all these spells, but you only have a few control spells at a high enough DC to really put out in a big combat.

Yes. Your highest level slots.
And here is where 3.5 breaks apart. The highest level slots scaled way faster than saving throws. At first glance, at least good saving throws seem to keep up. But in practice they do not really. On top of focussing ony your main stat for wizards and sorcerers when you get an ability score increase, there were feats and magic items to increase DC further.
And then the caster could reasonably target at least two saving throws (Will and Fortitude). A bad saving throw, starting at +0 and then only increasing by 1/3 levels (that is +2 at level 8) makes defending against control spells difficult.
Fighter Types tend to only have 12 wis at most. Which at level 8 only gives a +3 save (maybe +4 with cloak of resistance) against DC of 10 (base) + 4(spell level) +5(stat) +1 (feat) and +1(misc magic item) = 20. That means the fighter needs to roll an 18+ to not fall victim to a dominate person spell.

I'd try that any day before throwing an 8d6 fireball at them. Which they might save against and have a good chance to resist it. A fighter in 3e has probably as much HP as a 5e fighter. The player side has not changed that much at the top end. Probably even lowered, because con increasing items are harder to get.

In 5e, take your pick, everything has your best DC ready to go.

Control in 5e is mainly held in check by concentration. Which is a fine enough mechanic.
But damage spells are just doing full damage more reliable when you level up.

 

[Zardnaar]

What are you typing at times?

Never said that.
Not 3 times as much as 2e ones at levels 1 and 2. A fighter with 16 str and weapon specialization did 1d8+3.

Yes. And your point is?

How does that connect to what I said?

Kinda "vad"? I don't understand that slang.

Yeah. Beware.

???
I am really not able to follow you. I don't understand enough words to make sense of that.

How does that relate to 5e?

No. 3.5 did nothing right. Direct damage in 3.5 was a trap. Save or suck and prebuffing was so powerful that direct damage was comparatively useless.

???

I get the feeling you quotes someone that has blocked me or who I have blocked...

Apologies phone can word salad things. Hate the keyboard on it.

Youre under rating how good fireball was in 3E vs how people play. People like using it.

Are there more powerful spells 3E? Sure
But its still better at killing things than 5E hence its B tier. Death is still the best debuff. By itself it wasn't a bad spell. Or good.