The HERO System

[mmadsen]

How do you determine what's "required" and which calculations are "useless"?

For an entirely too detailed response, by all means, read the Streamlining Hero thread.

In a nutshell, Hero uses redundant stats (e.g., Body, Con, PD, ED, and Stun for "toughness") and falsely precise stat values (e.g. Int 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, they're all functionally the same). It also tracks too many numbers in combat (Body, Stun, and End, as well as charges, the Spd chart, etc.) and relies on quirky, slow die mechanics.

The genius of Hero was in the flexibility of the power-design process (not in the number-crunching involved).

 

[Chuk]

Over and over again, HERO extols its own virtues of simplicity and clarity -- and then proceeds to delve into the most heinously complicated, poorly constructed, over-blown jargonese that I have ever seen in any roleplaying rulebook ever. I am an advocate of the Campaign for Plain English and, if I ever wanted to show how NOT to write clearly and concisely, I would uphold HERO as a shining example.

As far as I can tell, the rules are overly complicated, such that, in play, the GM will perforce be endlessly referring back to the tables in the book. Of course, to validate this criticism would require actually playing it. Which I simply cannot be bothered to try and do..

This actually seems to not resemble Hero System at all. A beginning GM will almost certainly need to refer to the Speed Chart (and might still want to for a long time if there's a lot of Speed variation between the PCs), but other than that I can't think of a table you need to look at during play. There are a couple for character creation, but one is just basically a table style description of all the powers -- 4th edition had a table that made it so you wouldn't have to do any multiplying or dividing of fractions, but I don't even remember right now if that even made it in to 5th edition.

There are a couple of lists of combat modifiers that you might need to look up the first few times, but they're pretty straightforward. It's not nearly as complicated as, say, figuring out AoO.

The character construction is fairly complex -- not as bad as trying to find just the right Feat from six or eight or however many books your DM allows, and lots of character types won't be complex at all (anything with lots of different fancy powers probably will -- fantasy wizards are pretty complicated for newbies. Not hard, just a lot of different details.)

But Sidekick is so cheap that you might as well pick it up as others have suggested -- I mean, if you don't like it, what are you out? One night at the movies, maybe? (I couldn't go to a movie by myself for the cost of the Sidekick book if I wanted a popcorn, but it'd be pretty close.)

 

[PCD]

Wow!

Thanks for all of the information.

Tons of it.

 

[buzz]

4th edition had a table that made it so you wouldn't have to do any multiplying or dividing of fractions, but I don't even remember right now if that even made it in to 5th edition.

It's in Sidekick.

 

[buzz]

In a nutshell, Hero uses redundant stats (e.g., Body, Con, PD, ED, and Stun for "toughness") and falsely precise stat values (e.g. Int 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, they're all functionally the same). It also tracks too many numbers in combat (Body, Stun, and End, as well as charges, the Spd chart, etc.) and relies on quirky, slow die mechanics.

Yep, I pretty much don't agree. Okey-doke.

 

[Eosin the Red]

In a nutshell, Hero uses redundant stats (e.g., Body, Con, PD, ED, and Stun for "toughness") and falsely precise stat values (e.g. Int 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, they're all functionally the same). It also tracks too many numbers in combat (Body, Stun, and End, as well as charges, the Spd chart, etc.) and relies on quirky, slow die mechanics.

If you want to get the nuiances of combat then the CON, BOD, STUN, PD & ED values are very necesary - in some campaigns you need MD as well. If you don't want the nuiances, then GURPS or D&D is for you. I like that a Meatshield can take 10d6 HTH without blinking but but should he be fireballed for 10d6 he is stunned out of his gord and possibly hurt pretty badly. You can't do that without ED & PD. I like getting STUNNED and being basically unhurt or getting your hand cut off but still being awake. Those things require all of those numbers but they are not that difficult to track....like familiar abilities, hit points, ac (touch ac, flat footed ac, and AC), special abilities, spell-like abilities, abilities of weapons...blah, blah, blah, blah....same thing. All systems have things you have to keep track of....Hero is no different.)

Stats are an issue just like in D&D -- an 11 INT is the same thing as a 10 INT. There are floaty numbers that are just there....but it is no different than other games.

In modern we don't track end and speed is not that difficult. In Fantasy - End is only required if you are a spell caster, cause let's face it the non-spell caster spend the same amount every round. Not to hard to add that up at any point to see whare you are at.

In supers - END is vital. Sometimes the only way to beat someone is to outlast them. I had a character who was based around his END usage....

Energy Blast -
12d6 = 0 END
+2d6 = 4 END
+2d6 =10 END
+2d6 = 20 END
+2d6 = 40 END

This character who I played for 2 years could not be done without end. If you want flexibility that means that you need checks and balances. END, SPD, STUN, Charges, and REC are all balances.

My wife looks at my d20 books and says that it must require a math degree to play the game with all of those numbers. It is a familar song but still not true. It just looks that way with those who are not familiar.

PS - Hero folks don't generally discuss Hero games at RPG.net - it is like showing up at a clan rally and being the wrong race. Why take the abuse?

Kannik - that is an excellent summation.

 

[Karl Green]

---------------

Next, a little history. Hero system began as Champions, a superhero rpg. It was revolutionary in many ways, and did a great job creating the comic book genre. The rules, however, were in need of serious balancing. Other supplements came out, including for the wild west and espionage.

Champions II followed and was an improvement, but the system (IMO) didn't really come into its own until 3rd Edition. This edition cleaned up and consolidated a lot of the rules. Instead of separate rulebooks for different genres, everything was included in the main book. The worst complaint I can make is that the binding was lousy, so the book fell apart fairly quickly.

Fourth Edition (IIRC, called Fuzion) appears to have been a bit of a waste. I glanced at the rules, but never used the system. As another poster said, they weren't terribly well written. Ironic, since the idea was to make the system simpler...

Fifth Edition is the latest. The rulebook is fairly well organized and, best of all, has tons of examples of powers, rules, and campaign ideas. The system also has a lot of support - if you're going to use the system for superhero gaming, definitely pick up Champions, and consider Millennium City (a city book) and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks (a villain book). There's also quite a bit of free material on Hero Games website. If you want a character creation program, Hero Designer 2 is available - I'm still not completely sold on this product, but for now I'm forcing my group (including me, the GM) to use it, to give it a fair test.

----------------------

Not to be a dork but you are mixing up Champions III, Hero IV and Fuzion a bit. There was no HERO 3, it was still split up back them. I still have the Champions III rule book at home. Hero 4 is when the made just one book as it were for all genes. Champions 4 (or the big blue book as was called) came out first then the HERO system or something. A few years later they had Fuzion, which could be thought of a 4.5. It was Champions/Hero 4 that all the rules were more or less put together...

NOW back on topic... I use to LOVE the Hero system and played it all the time, but after I while I got tired of the weight of the system. You have to track END, STUN, BODY, etc. for each and every NPC, with PD/ED, counting damage dice (normal and killing use two different systems), etc. It just got to be to much, and I started enjoying the game less and less. I occational play in a game of it but I would never run a game using the system any more. I have thought about cutting back on the number of Attributes and Figured attributes, cutting out lots of other stuff also but what is the point? It is a good game for some people, just not me

 

[mmadsen]

I like that a Meatshield can take 10d6 HTH without blinking but but should he be fireballed for 10d6 he is stunned out of his gord and possibly hurt pretty badly. You can't do that without ED & PD.

I like the idea of Electro being immune to electricity but not to plasma bolts. Do we need Electricity Defense and Plasma Defense on every character sheet? Cold Defense and Sonic Defense? Fire Defense and Acid Defense?

A flexible system can handle plenty of nuances without inflexibly requiring stats for all of them.

 

[Jhamin]

Wow!

Thanks for all of the information.

Tons of it.

Yeah....

Hero is one of those games that inspires passion, one way or another.

People who hate it see it as a pile of stats that can choke a horse masqurading as a streamlined system.

People who love it (such as myself) see it as a game based on consistant rules that are flexible enough to create the game I want without resorting to "just making it up" the way rules lite systems do or being forced into a class/level straightjacket.


Hero is a game that people hate enough to go on long rants about when the suject is mentioned, yet when it went out of print for 10 years it's devoted fanbase still played voraciously and kept an active internet presence. How many other games can say that? (Ok, maybe RuneQuest)

 

[Jhamin]

I like the idea of Electro being immune to electricity but not to plasma bolts. Do we need Electricity Defense and Plasma Defense on every character sheet? Cold Defense and Sonic Defense? Fire Defense and Acid Defense?

A flexible system can handle plenty of nuances without inflexibly requiring stats for all of them.

Hmm. I'm pretty much with Buzz on this one. I don't agree. Sorry.


I want to compare the fact that Hero actually puts PD, ED, Stun and Body on your character sheet while D20 uses pretty much all the same stats but calls them Fire Resistance, Electricity Resistance, Acid Resistance, Cold Resistance, Sonic Resistance, Damage Reduction, Standard Damage, and Non-Lethal Damage.

But that's just my Hero Defensiveness. We love our game.