the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

[Hannibal King]

Is it just me or is the Hide skill the most powerful ability ever?!

Take a rogue with high Dex, max ranks and a Hide potion. How does your average monster with a +4 Spot skill (if thier lucky) see them?

It seems to me that Hide is more powerful than Invisibility which has several spells that can negate it? But Hide...oh no... nothing as far as I can tell can detect a well hidden character.

Don't even get me started on this Hide in Plain Sight ability!

Hide has the potential to ruin my game, unless I use constructs, oozes and undead in every session to thwart my rogues sneak attacks. Don't get me wrong I don't want to constantly counter his hiding (and sneak attacks) but as it stands I will never be able to counter it.

Help!
The King

 

[Yair]

Darkvision foils Hide without fail (to its range).
If there is an area with no shadowy illumination or cover, you also can't Hide there.
Scent and Listen can also be used to identify a hiding character, to some degree ("toss the fireball into the north, I can hear him moving...").
You can use monsters with Tremorsense or Blindsense to foil hiding too, IIRC.
If you want, you can also apply circumstance modifiers at your whim (that's by the RAW here - you are SUPPOSED to do that!), for example a -10 in a well illuminated room with little cover, a -100 in a gladiator's arena.
Demand the character describe how he is hiding. "I'm sneak attacking him with my awesome TWF in a full attack while hiding behind the candlestick" doesn't really make sense. "I'm sneak attacking him with my awesome TWF in a full attack while invisible" does make sense.

Personally, I find invisibility grants +20 to Hide plus an improved Hide in Plain Sight, which I reckon is too strong. I have no problem with the skill, for me it's the other way around...

 

[Shin Okada]

Hide does not make someone invisible.

At the start of battle, someone unnoticed can take a partial round. So he may make one sneak attack because of it (Of course a rogue can still flank an opponent). That is all. How it can ruin a game? Sure, a rogue often inflicts much damage than fighter types. But a rogue does not hit that much often (low BAB). And relatively soft (low hp and not the best AC). In combat, Rogue in 3.0/3.5e is better than thieves in previous editions. But they are not the super-fighter or something.

Also, there are a lot of monsters and characters who has uncanny dodge (like rogues and barbarians), can never be caught flat-footed (like minotaur), has blindsight (no need to make spot or listen check to notice someone within range), scent (can detect a rogue via smell),or be immune to sneak attacks, and so on. Hide and surprise tactics can never be a dominative method.

 

[Aaron2]

IHide has the potential to ruin my game, unless I use constructs, oozes and undead in every session to thwart my rogues sneak attacks. Don't get me wrong I don't want to constantly counter his hiding (and sneak attacks) but as it stands I will never be able to counter it.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but nothing about being Hidden guarantees that the character gets a sneak attack; its up to the DM to determine if the target can't reasonably react to the attack. If you feel the character is abusing the skill (such as hiding behind another character or repeatedly hiding in the same spot), you can deny his Sneak Attack.

That being said, generally a rogue should be getting one sneak attack per combat as a significant part of his combat prowess.


Aaron

 

[Thanee]

Hide only works if there is a condition, which lets you hide. Without cover or concealment, there is no (normal) hide.

So, if your rogue hides 20 ft. away from a guard, and then moves out in the open in order to attack him, the guard will see the rogue as soon as she leaves her hiding place... automatically, no spot required.

This would then be the surprise round, which the rogue has to use to move up to the guard (tho, a restricted charge might work, depending on the situation).

Afterwards you roll initiative and only if the rogue beats the guard, a sneak attack can be made after that (unless there are more attackers present who can provide flanking, etc). That's one reason why Improved Initiative is a good feat for rogues.

Though you could be nice and allow the rogue to Move Silently to sneak up to the guard, while he looks away.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Aaron2]

Though you could be nice and allow the rogue to Move Silently to sneak up to the guard, while he looks away.

Or maybe distract him with a Bluff check.


Aaron

 

[Plane Sailing]

3.5e clarified things nicely. You need cover or concealment to hide. No cover or concealment? No hiding then. Hide in plain sight requires certain conditions (shadows for a shadowdancer, outdoors for a ranger IIRC).

 

[dcollins]

Hide has the potential to ruin my game, unless I use constructs, oozes and undead in every session to thwart my rogues sneak attacks. Don't get me wrong I don't want to constantly counter his hiding (and sneak attacks) but as it stands I will never be able to counter it.

Be sure to note that by the letter of the rules, a sneak attack from surprise can only happen on the very first round of the combat, while an enemy is flat-footed. After that the only literal option is flanking; you don't get sneak attacks jusy because you're hiding, only when the enemy is flat-footed.

 

[azmodean]

Be sure to note that by the letter of the rules, a sneak attack from surprise can only happen on the very first round of the combat, while an enemy is flat-footed. After that the only literal option is flanking; you don't get sneak attacks jusy because you're hiding, only when the enemy is flat-footed.

Actually, if you are hiding, you are not visible to the target, and therefore they lose their dex bonus to AC against your attacks. This is not spelled out in the rules though.

On the other hand, there is this:

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment

If you just have some of the monsters hang out in cover, then the rogue cannot sneak attack. Also anything with a displacement or blur effect is immune to sneak attack unless the rogue can see through it.

One thing I'm curious about Hannibal King, is how often is too often? IMHO, if a rogue isn't getting off an average of one sneak attack a combat, they aren't contributing as much as they should, especially with the sneaking-focused rogue you describe..

Also, what about the invisible blade? Against most monsters with a discernable anatomy and a mind, a levelled invisible blade can do a sneak attack every time they hit.

 

[Aaron2]

Actually, if you are hiding, you are not visible to the target, and therefore they lose their dex bonus to AC against your attacks./QUOTE]
In the Hide skill discription it says the skill can be used to "tail someone through a busy street without being noticed." So, "being noticed" is the important thing. Besides, if a hidden character wasn't visible then even people who made their Spot checks couldn't attack him.


Aaron