the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

[MerakSpielman]

Other clues...

The 3.5 DMG defines Invisible as "Visually undetectable."

Song & Silence has this quote regarding the Hide skill: "If you're a rogue, hiding is probably a significant part of your typical adventuring routine. But you can do much more with this skill than just stay out of sight. You can tail a quarry, sneak up on someone, blend into a crowd, act as a sniper, and even improve your chances of detection while invisible."

The editor in me just had to point this out.

Why on earth would you want to increase your chances of being detected while you're invisible?

 

[Darkness]

Under the description of Dexterity, the Dex bonus to AC is described as follows: "[You apply your Dex modifier to...] AC, provided that the character can react to the attack."
It doesn't give an explicit list, though.

Heck, even "dead" has an entry. Would it have been so hard to put in one or two sentences explicitly spelling out the effects of Hide on combat? *sigh*

 

[Darkness]

Why on earth would you want to increase your chances of being detected while you're invisible?

Hehehe. Seems I left out a word. There should be an 'avoiding' before 'detection.'

 

[Darkness]

Well, I found something on the WotC site that might help us figure this out...

[sblock]First of all...
For reference, a few definitions.

(PHB, p.152)
Total Concealment: If you have a line of effect to a target but not line of sight (for instance, if he is in total darkness or invisible or if you're blinded), he is considered to have total concealment from you. ...

(PHB, p.310)
line of sight: Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and your target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). ... If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

Second...
From All About Sneak Attacks, part two:

Facing an Unseen Opponent

To properly defend itself in combat, a creature must be able to see its foe, or use some ability acute enough to substitute for sight, such as the blindsight special quality (or the uncanny dodge ability; the section on uncanny dodge section is in Part Three).

When facing a totally concealed foe, a creature is denied Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class and the attacker gets a +2 attack bonus as well.

Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack.

Just about everyone has total concealment against a blinded creature, and total darkness gives everything total concealment against foes that don't have darkvision. Remember however, that concealment cuts both ways. Sneak attacks aren't possible when the target has any concealment whatsoever.

Some special qualities and skills allow creatures a limited ability to locate unseen foes. The scent special quality and the Spot and Listen skills all give some chance of figuring out exactly where an unseen foe lurks. So can cruder means, such as scattering sand or flour all over a dungeon floor when you suspect there's an invisible foe nearby. These measures allow you to locate an unseen foe, and possibly attack her, but they don't negate the foe's total concealment, so they won't keep you from being sneak attacked. It's not enough to know where your foe is. You've got to know when and where the attack is coming.

On the other hand, it's only total concealment that interferes with Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class. Anything that knocks down total concealment to a lower degree makes any Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class available again. A spell such as see invisibility or true seeing robs an invisible foe of its total concealment, but only for the creature using the spell; the spell user could then use other means to render the invisible foe at least partially visible to allies, however. Splattering an invisible foe with a little flour or paint reduces or eliminates an invisible creature's total concealment, at least for a little while, as does a trusty glitterdust or faerie fire spell.

The blindsight ability allows its user to discern any unseen creature within range just as though the unseen creature was fully visible (provided the creature with blindsight has line of effect to the concealed creature). A creature with blindsight thus retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against an unseen foe and blindsight also negates most kinds of concealment. This means that you can't sneak attack a creature with blindsight unless you have it flanked or catch it flat-footed. Also, a creature with blindsight can ignore any concealment a foe has when making a sneak attack of its own.

...

[/sblock]

 

[dcollins]

And yet they still manage to never refer to "successfully hidden" in all that language. That's a bit frustrating, I suppose.

 

[Hannibal King]

Ok basically the rogue in my game usually wins initiative, fires at opponent getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide, around a corner, door etc. Next round monster rolls spot (fails) rogue use standard action to attack (I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?), getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide again. This is his tactics for EVERY combat. Cause the rules are the way they are the DM is forced to find a way around it. That's one of the things I hate about D&D the ability for the rules to be so easily abused.

Ok fair enough his low BAB means that last session he failed to hit 4 rounds in a row. What another problem is that basically the rest of the party become targets for the monsters cause they, the monsters, can't spot the rogue. So he is going almost entire sessions without getting hit while the rest of the party end up near death.

I guess I should let the players deal with it really, but I prefer to make sure everyone is equally challenged and I don't think the rogue is since he has no almost no fear of being seen or hurt in combat.

As for Glitterdust, yeah great spell but 10 ft radius is pretty small and you need to see the rogue first.

Concealment may be the answer or possibly having the smart monsters retreat to cover, forceing the rogue to come out. Yeah that might work.

Thanks guys.
The King

 

[Pickaxe]

Cheap, easy, low-level magic spell gets rid of hide real easy. Can you say Glitterdust? Unlike Fearie Fire, you don't have to actually see the person to cast Glitterdust, it just affects everything.

Actually, you don't have to see your target for Faerie Fire as well; it affects any creatures within its 5 ft. area of effect.

--Axe

 

[DarkMaster]

Ok basically the rogue in my game usually wins initiative, fires at opponent getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide, around a corner, door etc. Next round monster rolls spot (fails) rogue use standard action to attack (I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?), getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide again. This is his tactics for EVERY combat. Cause the rules are the way they are the DM is forced to find a way around it. That's one of the things I hate about D&D the ability for the rules to be so easily abused.

Ok fair enough his low BAB means that last session he failed to hit 4 rounds in a row. What another problem is that basically the rest of the party become targets for the monsters cause they, the monsters, can't spot the rogue. So he is going almost entire sessions without getting hit while the rest of the party end up near death.

I guess I should let the players deal with it really, but I prefer to make sure everyone is equally challenged and I don't think the rogue is since he has no almost no fear of being seen or hurt in combat.

As for Glitterdust, yeah great spell but 10 ft radius is pretty small and you need to see the rogue first.

Concealment may be the answer or possibly having the smart monsters retreat to cover, forceing the rogue to come out. Yeah that might work.

Thanks guys.
The King

No what you are describing his snipping if he want's to hide again after shooting the arrow -20 penality on the hide check. If he shot and wasn't hidden initially, he can't hide back unless he has hide in plain sight ability.

So the rogue meets the orc, they both see each other. The rogue won initiative shoots get the sneak damage. Now he can't hide because the orc knows where he is (unless of course he has the hide in plain sight ability)

 

[Darkness]

That's a bit frustrating, I suppose.

*nods* After digging through 30+ Dragon magazines, the core rulebooks for both 3.0 and 3.5, the 3.0 class splatbooks and the WotC homepage, I for one certainly resemble this remark.

The best they give us is "must be able to see its foe," it seems.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Can anyone dig up a rules quote that explicitly says that "successfully hidden = invisible" for purposes of combat (such as denying Dex bonus to AC)? Lacking that, I guess that's what I meant by "letter of the rules" above, that it's not really given as an option.

Please point out where it says that dead=cannot take actions.

As far as I can work out, a dead character can continue to adventure with, basically, no problems whatsoever.

If we abandon common sense that is...