the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

[dcollins]

*nods* After digging through 30+ Dragon magazines, the core rulebooks for both 3.0 and 3.5, the 3.0 class splatbooks and the WotC homepage, I for one certainly resemble this remark.

Well, thanks for the research.

 

[Aaron2]

Ok basically the rogue in my game usually wins initiative, fires at opponent getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide, around a corner, door etc. Next round monster rolls spot (fails) rogue use standard action to attack (I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?), getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide again.

As I said before, using this tactic the rogue will get one sneak attack per combat. Once he makes his initial attack, he is "observed" and can't hide again. Remember that every time you let the rogue get a sneak attack just because he's hidden it's because you (as DM) are being nice to the player. Don't let him BS you into thinking that he has some sort of right to SA damage.

So he is going almost entire sessions without getting hit while the rest of the party end up near death.

What do the other players think about this? I've seen plenty of PCs that avoid danger at the expense of everone else. Most tend to be cleric IME.


Aaron

 

[sfedi]

Please point out where it says that dead=cannot take actions.
As far as I can work out, a dead character can continue to adventure with, basically, no problems whatsoever.
If we abandon common sense that is...

It still surprises me that people argue that a succesfully hidden character can't make sneak attacks, or denies Dex bonus fromit target... just because it doesn't says in the rules that a succesfully hidden character is not visible by it's observer.

 

[Aaron2]

It still surprises me that people argue that a succesfully hidden character can't make sneak attacks, or denies Dex bonus fromit target... just because it doesn't says in the rules that a succesfully hidden character is not visible by it's observer.

Well, not only do the rules not say that hidden characters deny a target's dex bonus, nowhere do they even imply it. In fact, a hidden character -is- visible simply by the very fact that you can see him if you make a Spot check. Hidden characters can make sneak attacks, they just aren't guaranteed one [and it takes a generous interpretation of a comment in the description of armor class for that].


Aaron

 

[Meeki]

Well, not only do the rules not say that hidden characters deny a target's dex bonus, nowhere do they even imply it. In fact, a hidden character -is- visible simply by the very fact that you can see him if you make a Spot check. Hidden characters can make sneak attacks, they just aren't guaranteed one [and it takes a generous interpretation of a comment in the description of armor class for that].


Aaron

Invisible characters can be noticed with a spot check also, at not such a high DC, somewhere around 20'ish, and if the DM allows spotted with higher a higher DC. Hiding only allows for a rogue to attack in a suprise round, thus denying the target their AC.

Getting back to the original post about hiding, rogues can dump alot of skill points into hide, that is what they are specializing in then it should be "powerful". A creature with +4 to spot is probably not going to see the rogue, that is how it is suppose to be. Rogues deal alot of damage in a short amount of time. I dont know why alot of DM's feel that they need to foil all the attempts of a party to sneak up on monsters or the party's use of tactics.

That post about how the rogue fires a shot every round and ducks back around the corner, aparently your DM hasn't read the hide skill description, as pointed out in earlier posts. People if you have rules issues LOOK in the books, most answers can be found such as the questions in these two pages of posts.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Even with SA on every attack rogues have trouble doing as much damage as pure melee characters.

 

[Shin Okada]

Ok basically the rogue in my game usually wins initiative, fires at opponent getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide, around a corner, door etc. Next round monster rolls spot (fails) rogue use standard action to attack (I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?), getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide again. This is his tactics for EVERY combat......

The King

I see, he is using "sniping" in PHB P.76.

First of all, he must be at least 10 ft. away from the target(s) and must be already hidden. And he takes -20 penalty on his hide check when he tries to hide again.

If he success on one attack, the struck opponent and his allies know that something happened. So they may move around and search. Once one of an opponent come closer to the door, a rogue cannot use sniping any more.

And, in dungeon, in many cases, a rogue must first open a door to make a position which provides him a cover and a line of sight to the targets. Even how high the rogue's hide/move silently modifiers are, it is unnatural that monsters do not find the open door for rounds.

 

[Aaron2]

I see, he is using "sniping" in PHB P.76.

I think the player is trying to be clever and get around the sniping rules. Here's how you do it:

First, you start off hidden behind total cover such as around a corner or behind a tree. On your turn you:

1) Use a free action to lean around the corner to see your target. [See Note A]

2) Use your standard action to attack the target with SA damage. At this point the enemy can see you, but you don't care.

3) Use a move action to go back behind the cover. Since you are in total cover again, you automatically succeed at your Hide check.

Rince and repeat

While you should need a new Hide check in step 1, because you are in improved cover, you get a +10 bonus which makes it even harder for the bad guys. If you were going to be super-strick, you could say that since you are moving from one form of cover to another (total to improved) you need to make a new Hide check and making a Hide check requires a move action. Forcing this would limit the rogue to one attack every other round.

To deal with this problem you have a few choices. First, you can deny the sneak attack damage to all but the first attack since your opponent is now expecting it. Secondly, you can use readied actions to attack the rogue (remember to include the +8 AC bonus). Enemy mages can use properly placed burst or spreads to reach around the corner. You probably wouldn't want to use a spell with a Reflex save so Sound Burst and Stinking Cloud are good low level choices. Alchemist fire can be a poor man's substitute. Finally, the best bet is to just throw a sight blocking spell in the general area to take the rogue out of the fight. Obscuring Mist is the classic choice but a smokestick can be used by the magically challenged.

If the character were to use the sniping rules, he wouldn't be able to duck back behind the cover and so would be left semi-exposed (still with improved cover).

Are there rules written that allow a character the made a Spot check to inform others of the hidden character's location?

Note A: While leaning around a corner isn't something you can normally do if you play strictly by the miniature rules, "peering around a corner" is specifically mentioned on pg. 152 as an example of improved cover. The above scheme won't work under the mini rules, the rogue would have to make a 5-ft. step to move around the cover thus losing his cover and blowing his hidden status.


Aaron

 

[Nail]

(I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?)

Nope.

"Your feet stay put" has nothing to do with it.

If the rogue is around a corner, on the otherside of a doorway, or has some other form of total concealment, he must use a move action or a 5 foot step to give him line of sight to the opponent. No "peeking around doorways". (Keep in mind that you can't move diagonally from one square to another if a corner is in your way. So that 5 foot step might not be possible in order to get the line of sight.)

In any case, the rogue's opponent is no longer flat-footed after being sniped at, nor is he denied his Dex bonus when the rogue tries the same trick again. (Besides: After the very first attack to rogue is observed, so concealment won't help him....only total concealment --> and that has the problems I've explained above.)

Your player has been taking advantage of you.

 

[Nail]

Two major problems with this "clever" plan.

I1) Use a free action to lean around the corner to see your target.

That's fine.....but that doesn't let you attack him. You need a line of sight from your square in order to do that. Since you don't leave your square, you don't have that option.

3) Use a move action to go back behind the cover. Since you are in total cover again, you automatically succeed at your Hide check.

Being hidden does not mean your opponent is denied his dexterity bonus. So no Sneak Attack after round 1. Sorry!

So....other than not being able to do steps #1 and #2 and #3, this three step plan is great!