the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

Flat footed is just that.
Its a guard standing about bored out of his brains, finger up his bum, making a shopping list n his head. Its someone who is not expecting immediate immanent dainger.

Once you start firing arrows at him he is no longer flat footed, he is moving, duck, diving, weavng, dodging, not letting you get time to snipe him. Irrespective of wether or not he knows you are there he is just making to to difficult for you to pick out a vulnerable part of his body. If people are running into combat, they know they are running into dainger and are not flat footed.

Majere
 

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Aaron2 said:
I wouldn't argue with you if you don't think being hidden (even in an unexpected place) is enough to satisfy the "can't react" portion. I consider it a judgement call.

(nods)

Still, I'm not sure it's much of a "judgement call". All combatants are assumed to observe all parts of the battlefield during combat (barring concealment or cover); hence no facing. Moreover, only a simpleton would find it "unexpected" that a suddenly dissappearing rogue turns up in a new spot later on.

The only wiggle room I see is being able to attack at range while hidden; that is, while sniping. (Be sure to require that Hide check at -20!) And even there I think it's perfectly reasonable (and rules-consistant) to say that the principle advantage of sniping is that the enemy can't effectively attack you (rather than sniping prevents opponents from using their Dex bonus to AC).

But hey: prove me wrong. I'm flexible.
 


Aaron2 said:
I make a distinction between "undetectable" and "undetected". If a character uses a move action to make another Spot check and succeeds, he detects the hidden character with his vision. Hence, the hidden character is definately visually detectable.

Should hidden characters also get +2 to hit as invisible characters do?


Aaron

I don't find that a persuasive distinction. How does that fit in with using the see invisibility spell? Technically, invisible isn't really undetectable either. The difference between the two (hiding and invisibility) is the thing necessary to actually see the visually undetectable character. The former requires a spot roll higher than the hide roll, the second requires a variety of other, generally magic, powers.
 

Aaron2 said:
My only reservation with this ruling is that "peering around a corner" is specifically mentioned as possible. If you can peer, you have line of sight, if you have line of sight you can attack.
I disagree.

"Peering" doesn't have a game definition. It's not a position on the battle grid. "Peering" has no effect on whether you have line of effect on the grid.
 

MerakSpielman said:
But there is precedent for people engaged in combat to be denied their Dex bonus against some of their opponents and not others.
Uhm......

So you are saying being Hidden causes your opponents to be in a similar state as Cowering? Or perhaps Stunned?

:)
 

Nail said:
Being hidden does not deny opponents their dex bonus. Ever.
Is this your interpretation before or after reading my post with the sblock? If after, whatever floats your boat, man. If before, I can repeat it for you: :)

First of all...
For reference, a few definitions.
(PHB, p.152)
Total Concealment: If you have a line of effect to a target but not line of sight (for instance, if he is in total darkness or invisible or if you're blinded), he is considered to have total concealment from you. ...
(PHB, p.310)
line of sight: Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and your target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). ... If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

Second...
From All About Sneak Attacks, part two:

Facing an Unseen Opponent

To properly defend itself in combat, a creature must be able to see its foe, or use some ability acute enough to substitute for sight, such as the blindsight special quality (or the uncanny dodge ability; the section on uncanny dodge section is in Part Three).

When facing a totally concealed foe, a creature is denied Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class and the attacker gets a +2 attack bonus as well.

Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack.

Just about everyone has total concealment against a blinded creature, and total darkness gives everything total concealment against foes that don't have darkvision. Remember however, that concealment cuts both ways. Sneak attacks aren't possible when the target has any concealment whatsoever.

Some special qualities and skills allow creatures a limited ability to locate unseen foes. The scent special quality and the Spot and Listen skills all give some chance of figuring out exactly where an unseen foe lurks. So can cruder means, such as scattering sand or flour all over a dungeon floor when you suspect there's an invisible foe nearby. These measures allow you to locate an unseen foe, and possibly attack her, but they don't negate the foe's total concealment, so they won't keep you from being sneak attacked. It's not enough to know where your foe is. You've got to know when and where the attack is coming.

On the other hand, it's only total concealment that interferes with Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class. Anything that knocks down total concealment to a lower degree makes any Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class available again. A spell such as see invisibility or true seeing robs an invisible foe of its total concealment, but only for the creature using the spell; the spell user could then use other means to render the invisible foe at least partially visible to allies, however. Splattering an invisible foe with a little flour or paint reduces or eliminates an invisible creature's total concealment, at least for a little while, as does a trusty glitterdust or faerie fire spell.

The blindsight ability allows its user to discern any unseen creature within range just as though the unseen creature was fully visible (provided the creature with blindsight has line of effect to the concealed creature). A creature with blindsight thus retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against an unseen foe and blindsight also negates most kinds of concealment. This means that you can't sneak attack a creature with blindsight unless you have it flanked or catch it flat-footed. Also, a creature with blindsight can ignore any concealment a foe has when making a sneak attack of its own.

...
 

billd91 said:
I don't find that a persuasive distinction. How does that fit in with using the see invisibility spell? Technically, invisible isn't really undetectable either.
The description of Invisibility states, "Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision." So either this statement is a lie or, by vision they mean normal vision and not spells or special powers. Since a hidden creature can be detected by normal vision, they are not visually undetectable.
Nail said:
So you are saying being Hidden causes your opponents to be in a similar state as Cowering? Or perhaps Stunned?
A successful Bluff check to feint causes attacker specific loss of dex bonus: "your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. "



Aaron
 

Majere said:
...If people are running into combat, they know they are running into dainger and are not flat footed.

My DM does not concurr. He's of the opinion that, even if you know that there's going to be combat in the next room, you can't get "combat ready", you have to be able to roll initiative and win. Hence when walking into a room where we 'knew' (or suspected strongly enough to behave as if we knew) there was a large spider hidden, we couldn't stop being flatfooted and prep for combat. Sure, we could buff all we wanted, but we couldn't make the 'combat now' music start until it jumped out to attempt to surprise us.

It didn't get a surprise round because we were watching for it. But we still had to beat it's initiative and act before we were no longer flat footed.

Was this a bad interpretation do you think? Or is it accurate according to the rules?


"
Aaron2 said:
The description of Invisibility states, "Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision." So either this statement is a lie or, by vision they mean normal vision and not spells or special powers. Since a hidden creature can be detected by normal vision, they are not visually undetectable.
A successful Bluff check to feint causes attacker specific loss of dex bonus: "your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. "

Aaron
"

I'm of the opinion that the statment is a lie. A first level character with a 10 dex and no ranks in hide walking around wearing an active ring of invisibility should be easily seen to by a level 12 character with 15 ranks in spot and an 18 wisdom. The invisible character's +20 to hide being effectively cancelled by the spotters +19 to spot.
 

ARandomGod said:
It didn't get a surprise round because we were watching for it. But we still had to beat it's initiative and act before we were no longer flat footed.

Was this a bad interpretation do you think? Or is it accurate according to the rules?
Your DM is playing it as the rules are written. Note that this is a different from the circumstance when new combatants are added to an existing fight. New combatants are not flat-footed if they are aware a battle is going on even if they can't see any of their opponents.

I'm of the opinion that the statment is a lie. A first level character with a 10 dex and no ranks in hide walking around wearing an active ring of invisibility should be easily seen to by a level 12 character with 15 ranks in spot and an 18 wisdom. The invisible character's +20 to hide being effectively cancelled by the spotters +19 to spot.
Even a successful spot check doesn't allow you to see an invisible creatures.

From the SRD: "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. "


Aaron
 

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