The highest-damage fighter power is level 3?!

[Zaruthustran]

Absolutely correct. Notice in the "Hit" section of the power it says nothing about "Make a secondary attack." The secondary attack is granted if you're wielding the correct weapon, nothing more.

Taking the indent into account, that's apparently what it says. If you hit, everything that's after or indented below "hit" applies.

So you make two attacks. For each attack: if you hit, you make a secondary attack.

Here're the rules on secondary attacks:

Some powers allow you to make secondary (or even tertiary) attacks. The power description indicates if you can make such an attack after the previous attack was a hit, if that attack was a miss, or regardless of whether the previous attack hits or misses.

Compare Rain of Blows to, for example, Devastation's Wake (p 84), or Fangs of Steel (p 84). Those secondary attacks only take place on a hit; you can tell because they're indented. Sudden Strike (p 106) has its secondary attack under Effect, so you get it even if you miss with the primary.

On the other hand, look at Powerful Faith on p 99. The miss says that you don't get a secondary attack, yet the secondary attack is indented under Miss.

Curious... looks like the author of the fighter was not the author of the paladin, since apparently they use different formatting.

Curiouser still: the ranger uses a third type of formatting. For all the ranger double attacks, the terminology is: "X vs Y, two attacks". And for damage, the terminology is "Z[w] damage per attack."

I mean, look at the power Two-Wolf Pounce. It's kind of similar to Rain of Blows, but uses completely different language and formatting.

Very confusing. Since comparing powers across classes doesn't really work, I think the best clues are other fighter powers. Specifically, the powers on the same page as Rain of Blows.

Looking at them, it's obvious that the placement of the rules for "Weapon" is deliberate. Take Dance of Steel, for example. That Slow effect only kicks in on a hit. How can you tell? It's indented under "Hit".
Compare to Armor Piercing Thrust, which references the Weapon bit both before and after the hit.

So, using that format, if the secondary attack was intended to be a single extra attack conditional on the weapon used, it would have been listed above the Hit, or on it's own unindented line.

Conclusion: rain of blows gives two attacks. If you hit with one and you're wielding one of the listed weapons, you get to make a secondary attack. Hit with both, make two secondary attacks.

 

[Melfast]

Three Attacks Is More Reasonable to Me

While there is room for reasonable interpretations either way, I think it is more reasonable to read it as a total of three attacks if you have the right weapon and two if you do not. It appears the intent is to encourage a particular weapon style, and this reading supports that intent without making the power stronger than higher level powers.

Like some of the previous postersm, I think the power is complete after the two primary attacks unless you have a spear, etc. in which case you get a secondary attack. Hitting is not listed as a requirement to get the secondary attack, so you get the third attack automatically if you meet the stated consdition of having the right weapon.

This puts the damage in about the right area for a level three power and still meets the objective of helping characters develop and use particular weapon styles.

It would be nice to have official clarification, though.

 

[Dormain1]

The weapon damage issue has to do with the number of weapons being wielded

The Ranger uses 2 weapons so needs 2 different weapon damages stated

the Fighter uses 1 weapon so only needs the 1 weapon dmg listed, its not like he is throwing in a headbutt or knee to the groin as a secondary attack

 

[pemerton]

While there is room for reasonable interpretations either way, I think it is more reasonable to read it as a total of three attacks if you have the right weapon and two if you do not. It appears the intent is to encourage a particular weapon style, and this reading supports that intent without making the power stronger than higher level powers.

But if one assumes a 50% chance to hit, then there is no difference in the strength of the power between 3 attacks, and 2 attacks, with each granting a secondary attack on a hit.

 

[Melfast]

3 Attacks and 4 Attacks Equal?

If you as a player had the option to take three attacks or four attacks, which would you take?

If based on a 50% average they are equivalent, why will 100% of players take the 4 attack option over haivng 3 attacks? It is a chance to hit one extra time if you roll well, and it is one more chance to roll a critical.

Over time, that chance for a fourth attack makes a big difference.

Also, as stated by the OP, four attacks makes the power unbalanced compared to its peer power abilities.

Compare Rain of Blows to Crushing Blow. They are both third level. Crushing blow has, in an indented paragraph below the Hit results for the power, that if you have an axe, etc. you get to add your CON bonus to the damage as a bonus. It doesn't say add your CON bonus on a successful hit. It says add it if you have a particular weapon combo.

Similarly, Rain of Blows says, in an indented paragraph below the Hit results for the power, that you get a secondary attack if you have a particular weapon combo. It does not say you get a secondary attack if you hit. It says you get the secondary attack if you have a particular weapon combo.

In fact all five of the other 3d level Fighter Attack powers in the same section grant an automatic special effect (damage bonus, slow the target, or bonus to hit) using the same power format and based on using the power in conjunction with a particular weapon combo, not on whether you hit. Read in context with the other powers, it makes sense that the power is intended to be read the same way, and to give you a secondary attack automatically when you use the power with the right weapon.

Just my two cents...

 

[pemerton]

Melfast, I made the interpretive argument you've run on the other thread I mentioned above (in which Ari argued that I was wrong). I've now changed my mind, I think.

As to your question - I don't think it's true that 100% of players would take 2 attacks plus 2 conditional additional attacks, rather than 3 attacks none of which is conditional. It would depend entirely on the expected damage output.

 

[GoLu]

If you as a player had the option to take three attacks or four attacks, which would you take?

If it's 2 primary attacks, with an extra attack each time a primary attack hits (a 50% chance), then:

25% of the time you miss twice and get 2 attacks
50% of the time you hit once and get one extra attack for a total of 3 attacks
25% of the time you hit twice and get two extra attacks for a total of 4 attacks.

This averages to 3 attacks, which is the same average damage as just having 3 attacks always.

If based on a 50% average they are equivalent, why will 100% of players take the 4 attack option over haivng 3 attacks? It is a chance to hit one extra time if you roll well, and it is one more chance to roll a critical.

I'd take the above option over a straight up 3 attacks as well. The only way in which the 3 attacks are better is if I miss the first two times, in which case I'm looking at a 50% chance to maybe hit once for some unimpressive amount of damage. But an equal amount of time I hit on those first two attacks and then (if I take the 2+ attack option) I'm looking at the possibility of a huge spike in damage.

Kinda like why someone might prefer the x3 crit over the 19-20 crit.

 

[Azza]

I'm definitely reading this as two attacks and hitting grants a secondary attack if using the appropriate weapon, up to a maximum total of four attacks.

Compare Rain of Blows to Crushing Blow. They are both third level. Crushing blow has, in an indented paragraph below the Hit results for the power, that if you have an axe, etc. you get to add your CON bonus to the damage as a bonus. It doesn't say add your CON bonus on a successful hit. It says add it if you have a particular weapon combo.

This has me a little confused. The weapon effect is, If you are wielding an axe, hammer or mace you gain a bonus to the damage roll of your CON modifier(emphasis mine). Doesn't that mean the attack had to hit to have a damage roll? Wouldn't that mean that this weapon effect is dependent on a successful hit? It doesn't mention anything about continuing to add your CON bonus for any amount of time, ie until the end/start of your next turn or any such. It specifies, "the" damage roll, the one made if this attack was a success.

Similarly, Rain of Blows says, in an indented paragraph below the Hit results for the power, that you get a secondary attack if you have a particular weapon combo. It does not say you get a secondary attack if you hit. It says you get the secondary attack if you have a particular weapon combo.

Look at Armor-Piercing thrust. The weapon effect not dependent on hitting is listed before the hit result(the bonus to hit). The weapon effect dependent on hitting(the bonus damage) is listed after. To me, at least, this format clearly shows the intended effects.

If we used this format for Rain of Blows, and wanted to say the appropriate weapon only added one attack then surely it would read directly under attack, but above hit(just like armor piercing strike)
"Weapon:If your wielding a light blade, a spear or a flail and have a dexterity over 15 make a third attack."

In fact all five of the other 3d level Fighter Attack powers in the same section grant an automatic special effect (damage bonus, slow the target, or bonus to hit) using the same power format and based on using the power in conjunction with a particular weapon combo, not on whether you hit. Read in context with the other powers, it makes sense that the power is intended to be read the same way, and to give you a secondary attack automatically when you use the power with the right weapon.

Just my two cents...

Are they automatic? Look at Come and get it(pg 80). The automatic effect is clearly labeled as such. For this power it occurs before the attack. For Silverstep(pg 81) it happens after the attack, isn't indented so clearly doesn't rely on a hit. There are other powers that have a miss effect listed as well as a hit. All are clearly labeled. I believe all these 3rd level powers rely on a hit!

Back to rain of blows, if the weapon restriction wasn't included for granting the secondary attack would there be debate? If on the line under hit it red "secondary attack" would there be doubt? Look at Giants Wake (pg 81). It is pretty clear for this power that on a successful hit you get a secondary attack. I dont think this wording is much different from rain of blows, just the requirement for getting the secondary attack on a successful hit is listed the next line down.


Azza.

 

[pweent]

I was disappointed in reviewing "Reading A Power" to see that there was not in fact any guideline on how to read indentation. That said, I have to agree with the interpretation that the indented Weapon line is specifically a conditional on the Hit line. to approach this from another angle, check out Sweeping Blow (Fighter Attack 3 again). In this case, the weapon line is indented under Attack:

Attack: Str vs. AC

Weapon: If you're wielding an axe, a flail, a heavy blade, or a pick, you gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to one-half your Strength modifier.​

Hit: 1[W] + Str mod damage.

This example indicates that the indented Weapon line is specifically modifying its parent entry. In Sweeping Blow's case, it applies a conditional modifier to Attack. In Rain of Blows, it provides a conditional modifier to Hit.

I do wish this were spelled out explicitly rather than leaving us to inductive reasoning, though. I admire the goal of creating concise power entries, but I think in several cases it's just led to additional confusion.

 

[hennebeck]

The only thing I see missing is "Primary" in front of Attack.
Which it is implied in all other Power descriptions.

You have a Primary target and a primary attack. This primary attack just happens to make 2 attacks. 2 rolls.

If you have the right weapon, you make a Secondary attack.

Total of 3 attacks.

The multiple attacks granted by the Primary attack have nothing to do with the Secondary attack.