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D&D 5E The Illusion of Experience Points that Everyone Disbelieves

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If you demand to deal in absolutes then my response to the above is "No." The rules sets were designed to adjudicate actions a fictional persona takes within the fictional world. They were not designed to be code-broken as a player always tries to figure out the "right" way to game the system and thus "win" the game.
My players love to build characters for 3rd edition, but we never seem to end up playing it. When we do it's usually straight to combat against other optimized opponents. That's because 3e doesn't do a good job of defining the game world for the players to play in, but excels at defining how to optimize a character. The guys are very good at building these "characters" and they excel in regional competition at videogames, boardgames, and Magic: The Gathering. That's because they're gamers.

"Roleplaying Games" may have been a manufactured term by the creators, based on the relevant existing definitions "Role Playing" and "Games", but they broke new ground and formed a new thing that is neither of its two pieces but instead a whole new approach.
Originally that approach was a wargame hidden behind the screen and played without virtually any limitation by the players. While the mechanics are from wargames, the actual rules are more akin to solving a situational puzzle.

I'm willing to back away from my absolutism above and agree that some RPGers approach RPGs more from the game aspect and others from the role playing aspect. And that the original designers had similar intents in their design as players do in their approach (if that's even a relevant concern now as posited upthread). Are you?
I'm not denying there are individuals who want to play storygames. I'm one of them. I'm not being absolutist when I deny absolutist ideologies like "all games are stories" and "playing a game is telling a story". These have quit being answers in our hobby and become fundamental certainties - a state that leads to the end of creativity, not growth of such. And I don't really need anyone to accept whatever my current understandings of D&D are. I'm not being an absolutist, but asking others to look outside the uniformity of thought that does appear to me as absolutist from anyone stepping outside it.
 

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My players love to build characters for 3rd edition, but we never seem to end up playing it. When we do it's usually straight to combat against other optimized opponents. That's because 3e doesn't do a good job of defining the game world for the players to play in, but excels at defining how to optimize a character. The guys are very good at building these "characters" and they excel in regional competition at videogames, boardgames, and Magic: The Gathering. That's because they're gamers.

Yep, and I've got friends who play the same way. How is the game then designed for them (if I'm understanding you correctly)?

And I approach the same game differently. I make decisions in character that are not meant to solve the game or optimize my character, or even optimize his chances in-game. And the game has supported my approach to play. How is the game not designed for me?

Or is this all just your opinion that you've inadvertantly been posting as universal truth?
 

Yep, and I've got friends who play the same way. How is the game then designed for them (if I'm understanding you correctly)?
It's designed for them to game the situation once play has begun. Only that stuff was left unfinished, then brought out behind the screen, and we got a long practice of playing a wargame in front of a screen where at some point the referee has to quit being so and make stuff up. I would agree that's really bad game design, but it was the state of the hobby for many long years.

And I approach the same game differently. I make decisions in character that are not meant to solve the game or optimize my character, or even optimize his chances in-game. And the game has supported my approach to play. How is the game not designed for me?
I'd suggest RPGs haven't been designed for your approach, but that pretending a fictional personality (not role playing) was always a possible strategy as it would be in any game. When a player acted against other players and then blamed it on "playing my character" they were showing a real disconnect to what playing a game means. Storygames are satisfying all sorts of players wanting to pretend to be someone else and those designs actually do support your suggested approach to play. But no, I don't think the first, say, 25 years of D&D was designed to do what you wanted from it.

Or is this all just your opinion that you've inadvertantly been posting as universal truth?
Posting opinions in conflict with other opinions is what we've been doing all along. I don't happen to agree that winning or losing at a game must always begin with the understanding that we are making up a story. And in after repeatedly being dogpiled for opposing a largely held belief my statements might appear as some second universal truth. Please don't take them that way. I'm just going to find another understanding later myself anyways.
 

I'd suggest RPGs haven't been designed for your approach, but that pretending a fictional personality (not role playing) was always a possible strategy as it would be in any game. When a player acted against other players and then blamed it on "playing my character" they were showing a real disconnect to what playing a game means. Storygames are satisfying all sorts of players wanting to pretend to be someone else and those designs actually do support your suggested approach to play. But no, I don't think the first, say, 25 years of D&D was designed to do what you wanted from it.

Man, I been doin' it wrong for so long. :)

I don't actually like Storygames. The rules frame the scenes instead of framing the fictional actions of your character. It's still a game and many people enjoy them (inlcuding my wife), but it's not what I'm looking for. Yet I still play to my character and I don't do it without consideration for how my actions affect other characters around me.

Posting opinions in conflict with other opinions is what we've been doing all along. I don't happen to agree that winning or losing at a game must always begin with the understanding that we are making up a story. And in after repeatedly being dogpiled for opposing a largely held belief my statements might appear as some second universal truth. Please don't take them that way. I'm just going to find another understanding later myself anyways.

I'm all good with people's opinions, and if you say that was the intent, then I'll take it as so. I was trying to dig deeper into your opinion because I think I'm missing its implications. We may actually agree in some way, I just can't tell.
 

Your game is about authorship - something only partial to playing a game, my game actually needs a game for the players to solve while achieving objectives within it. Yours is theater because it posits game play as creating a shared fiction, mine is a game because it requires a prepared mechanical design players seek to decipher for playing it to occur.
My game has almost nothing in common with theatre.

It has no stage. It has no audience distinct from the participants. It has no script. It has no direction. Much of the naration is 3rd person.

Taken as a literary from, it is much closer to oral storytelling.

But what it actually is, is a game. A game with a prominent authorship component. Much like charades is a game with a prominent performance component. And Pictionary is a game with a prominent illustrative component. Which just reinforces my earlier point that your attempt to cabin the meaning of "game" within notions of "pattern recognition" and algorimthic operations is misguided. If such banal parlour games as charades end up, on your account, not being games, then your definition is too narrow. (I'm not even sure that Scrabble is a standard instance of a game on your account - it barely has a pattern recognition component comprable to chess or even Battleship.)

The OED offers the following as the first two meanings of "game":

* a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules;

* an activity that one engages in for amusement.

I think the D&D that I play satisfies the second of these, and given the role of rules comes close to satisfying the first also.

Scene framing is practically a requirement to create collaborative fiction, but actual game playing isn't.
So? Keeping well-hydrated is pratically a requirement to running competitively, but pumping air into tyres isn't. That tells me nothing about what I need to do if I'm going bike riding.

Scene framing is also an element of any RPG play that doesn't use continuous time for the unfolding of ingame events; and game playing is required if what you're doing is best described not as creating collaborative fiction, but rather playing an RPG.

Treating roleplaying as storytelling doesn't match up with the design of thousands of games in our hobby.
You're the one who is continually projecting these preconceived notins onto other's reports of their play experiences and play practices. For instance, nowhere have I used the phrase "storytelling" or talked about crafting collaborative fiction. Those are your notions and your phrases.

I've talked about scene-framing - ie describing to the players the imagined situation in which their PCs find themselves, with particular emphasis on elements of that situation likely to be sources of conflict or antagonism. I've talked about pacing - ie concerns about (i) the ratio of ingame action to player resource depletion, and (ii) the rhythm and sequencing of that conflict. And I've talked about action resolution - ie using rules to work out what happens when the PCs come into conflict with other elements of the gameworld.

This is bogstandard stuff in RPG rulebooks going back to the 80s (eg I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed rulebook talk about this sort of stuff, and they weren't at the cutting edge at that time).

It all depends upon the referee and the code used to create the game board these terms are referring to. If it exists on the game board, there must be some mechanics to be referenced by the referee when the players engage with it.
What is the mechanic for resolving surfing on doors down the frictionless corridor in WPM? I've read that module, and Gygax's DMG, and Moldvay Basic, all pretty closely and none of them has a mechanic. Moldvay Basic has the best advice for improvisation, but it encourages the GM to improvise based on the GM's conception of the ingame situation. Needless to say, that ingame situation is not real. It is imagined. Or, in other words, fictional.

BTW, the OED on fiction:

* literature in the form of prose, especially novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

* something that is invented or untrue.

When people talk about an RPG involving shared fiction, they are using the word in the second of those senses, although - because an RPG also involves imaginary events an imaginary people - their usage is not too far from the first sense either.

I'm not denying there are individuals who want to play storygames. I'm one of them. I'm not being absolutist when I deny absolutist ideologies like "all games are stories" and "playing a game is telling a story".
I don't know what a "storygame" is. I'm talking about RPGs, such as D&D, Burning Wheel, Marvel Heroic RP, etc.

And you are the only one going on about "all games are stories". No one else on this thread has asserted that. They have asserted that all RPGing involves fiction: because all RPGing involve imagined events and people that are invented and untrue.

I'd suggest RPGs haven't been designed for your approach
Which RPGs are you talking about. Here's a short list of RPGs from the late 70s through mid-80s that I am very confidenty have been widely played in roughly the sort of way that I, [MENTION=4892]Vyvyan Basterd[/MENTION] and other posters are describing:

* Traveller;

* Call of Cthulhu;

* Runequest;

* Rolemaster;

* Chivalry and Sorcery;

* Bushido;

* Dungeons & Dragons (B/X);

* AD&D (especially post-Dragonlance).

I'm sure plenty of other games I'm less familiar with could be added to that list.
 

Man, I been doin' it wrong for so long. :)

I don't actually like Storygames. The rules frame the scenes instead of framing the fictional actions of your character. It's still a game and many people enjoy them (inlcuding my wife), but it's not what I'm looking for. Yet I still play to my character and I don't do it without consideration for how my actions affect other characters around me.
I think attempts to explain deciphering the game resulted in concepts like immersion to demonstrate all the game elements whitewashed over a dozen years ago. And I don't deny since the activities of playing the game as I do are similar to activities we do when not playing a game, that exhibiting a character is awfully fun and easy to slip into. Characterization has been called an emergent act of playing old school D&D. But since the characters are so much like us I think it's easier to say than about playing Tetris, which is also very much about game play IMO and not expressing a personality.

I'm all good with people's opinions, and if you say that was the intent, then I'll take it as so. I was trying to dig deeper into your opinion because I think I'm missing its implications. We may actually agree in some way, I just can't tell.
I'm open to discussing more, but obviously wouldn't divulge the particular code I use, a kind strong solve series of algorithms that aren't that big in number at all, but cover a massive variety of potential game elements.
 

Much like charades is a game with a prominent performance component. And Pictionary is a game with a prominent illustrative component. Which just reinforces my earlier point that your attempt to cabin the meaning of "game" within notions of "pattern recognition" and algorimthic operations is misguided. If such banal parlour games as charades end up, on your account, not being games, then your definition is too narrow. (I'm not even sure that Scrabble is a standard instance of a game on your account - it barely has a pattern recognition component comparable to chess or even Battleship.)
Charades, Pictionary, Scrabble, and Battleship are all competitive. You could feasibly even play some, like Scrabble or Battleship to beat yourself. Doing stuff isn't solely authorship unless we have no context to weigh it within. Games are rigorously balanced because players are seeking to weigh the connections.

The OED offers the following as the first two meanings of "game":

* a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules;

* an activity that one engages in for amusement.

I think the D&D that I play satisfies the second of these, and given the role of rules comes close to satisfying the first also.
That's cool. I'm not suggesting you stop playing your games your way, but I don't see how that second definition isn't covering anything and everything anyone does with some desirable intention.

You're the one who is continually projecting these preconceived notins onto other's reports of their play experiences and play practices. For instance, nowhere have I used the phrase "storytelling" or talked about crafting collaborative fiction. Those are your notions and your phrases.
Okay, I won't use them for our conversation.

I've talked about scene-framing - ie describing to the players the imagined situation in which their PCs find themselves, with particular emphasis on elements of that situation likely to be sources of conflict or antagonism. I've talked about pacing - ie concerns about (i) the ratio of ingame action to player resource depletion, and (ii) the rhythm and sequencing of that conflict. And I've talked about action resolution - ie using rules to work out what happens when the PCs come into conflict with other elements of the gameworld.

This is bogstandard stuff in RPG rulebooks going back to the 80s (eg I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed rulebook talk about this sort of stuff, and they weren't at the cutting edge at that time).
Could you source any of this terminology from the 70s, 80s, or even early 90s? Scene framing, conflicts, "resolution" mechanics and the rest were developed by the Forge, a community that left out every idea about pattern recognition (e.g. strategizing) in games altogether.

What is the mechanic for resolving surfing on doors down the frictionless corridor in WPM? I've read that module, and Gygax's DMG, and Moldvay Basic, all pretty closely and none of them has a mechanic. Moldvay Basic has the best advice for improvisation, but it encourages the GM to improvise based on the GM's conception of the ingame situation. Needless to say, that ingame situation is not real. It is imagined. Or, in other words, fictional.
Modules aren't required to provide mechanics and the game rules are suggestions, not universal. A DM needs to have rules for those items if they are going to use the module, but that's part of converting any module to anyone's game.

BTW, the OED on fiction:

* literature in the form of prose, especially novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

* something that is invented or untrue.
Dictionaries are surveys of use, not prescriptions. That controlling definitions in dictionaries and encyclopedias can be used to control people is well known.

The thing is: the imaginary is existent, just like the puzzled out situation in a situational puzzle. By making it about fiction, by attempting to control the language, it is an attempt to control the ideas associated along with the activity. So it's simple to deny stories are used anywhere except in our culture, because other cultures are simply different. And that's okay. Gaming culture is like an Olympic performer or Jordan shooting a 3-pointer at the buzzer. This isn't about the drama, but the ability of the player within the confines of the game. I guess that's the hardest part of trying to tell people what a game is who are from a different culture. It isn't the running that makes it a race, or the imagined rules, though those are needed. It is the personal empowerment gained by running a race which following the rules enable through focusing.

And you are the only one going on about "all games are stories". No one else on this thread has asserted that. They have asserted that all RPGing involves fiction: because all RPGing involve imagined events and people that are invented and untrue.
Which doesn't make games fictional. As I said above, it is the actual acts by the players which are improved through play that is gaming. Any resulting story judged fictional in RPGs has been largely banal because it simply isn't the point. The point is to game.

Which RPGs are you talking about. Here's a short list of RPGs from the late 70s through mid-80s that I am very confidenty have been widely played in roughly the sort of way that I, Vyvyan Basterd and other posters are describing:
Lots of games early roughly felt what gaming meant, but also how D&D was doing something unique and tried different ways to capture something similar. Playing the games you listed probably could be re-appropriated for story authoring play. Most are skill games which I don't take to be good designs mechanically, but I'm not looking for the same experience you are.

You know I was thinking I could just no respond to any of this because we've started into simply defending different positions and not getting anywhere from it. I felt obligated to write back with all you wrote, but I'd be comfortable just letting the thread go from now. What else is there to cover?
 

Could you source any of this terminology from the 70s, 80s, or even early 90s? Scene framing, conflicts, "resolution" mechanics and the rest were developed by the Forge.

There is no need to source the terminilogy. The terminology may have been developed by the Forge (I'm not familiar enough with them to say one way or the other), but these elements existed before they codified it.

Much like roles were codified (Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller) in 4E, but roles (not necessarily those 4 as they existed in 4e) existed before 4E they just weren't codified as such.

Much like fire existed before it was ever called fire.
 

Doing stuff isn't solely authorship unless we have no context to weigh it within.
I have trouble making sense of this as a whole. But the first clause seems obviously true: human agents do things other than create fictions.

That doesn't mean that RPGing doesn't involve, of necessity, the creation of fictions and reasoning about them.

On the weekend I was playing Battleship with my child. In the course of play she made a mistake - she placed a white peg into a square that she hadn't called, and which happened to have my battleship in it. As a result she couldn't find my battleship - she thought she had eliminated all 4-square possibilities on the board - and I won.

After the game finished, and it became clear what had gone wrong, I made a joke about a "radar error". That is the creation of a fiction - an assertion of something imagined and known by all participants in the conversation not to be true. But it was at best ancillary to playing the game. You don't need to imagine untrue events, characters and situations to play Battleship.

An RPG is different. Consider, for instance, the following episode of play: player 1 rolls an attack against an orc, hits and deals damage, and the orc dies. The GM then announces "You slice off the orc's head, which goes rolling along the ground." Then player 2 says "How far is it from me? I want to pick it up and throw it at the skeleton - how much damage would it do if I hit?"

Now rolling the attack die is obviously not authorship, and has nothing to do with fiction at all. Nor is changing the hit point total on a record sheet - that's bookkeeping. The GM's description of the orc's decapitation is an act of authorship, but it is like my reference to the "radar error" in the Battleship game: taken on its own it is not strictly a part of playing the game, as - on its own - it has no consequences for how anything else in the play of the game unfolds. To use some Forge terminology, it is mere colour.

But when player 2 declares that his/her PC is going to pick up the orc head and throw it: now the imagined situation matters for the play of the game. The GM has to answer the question, What would happen if PC 2 were to throw the orc head at the skeleton? This is a counterfactual that has to be evaluated relative to an imaginary situation.

I think it has to be emphasised that there is no algorithm for answering the player's question. No D&D rulebook, for instance, has a damage listing for orc heads. (They don't even all have damage listings for thrown rocks - eg Gygax's PHB and Moldvay Basic don't - which is perhaps the nearest analogue.) Does it do bludgeoning damage (due to its thick skull) or slashing damage (due to its sharp tusks)? Which matter, given that slashing damage will be halved against the skeleton.

Moldvay Basic gives advice on how a GM should handle such situations: consider the imaginary situation, and the proposed action; work out how you think things would unfold in such circumstance; and then tell the player either you succeed, you fail (though Moldvay recommends avoiding this most of the time) or you have X% chance of success, now roll the dice!

As I said, this is counterfactual reasoning about an imagined situation.

Scientists do this sort of reasoning. They call it "performing a thought experiment". In a thought experiment, the imagined situation is specified with sufficient precision that the upshot of the counterfactual can be deduced as an entailment.

When a GM does it, there are no entailments: the imagined situations are not specified with sufficient precision, and the laws that govern them are not known in sufficient detail. Hence the GM has to stipulate. This is not arbitrary stipulation - it is reasoned within the imagined situation. But it is nevertheless stipulation. What word in English best describes someone stipulating an outcome (or range of possible outcomes) within a fictional situation? I think "authorship" is a good candidate.

Of course it doesn't follow from the fact that all RPGing involves GMs engaging in acts of authorship in the above sense - which is exactly what people mean when they say that in an RPG you can do anything - that all RPGing involves storytelling. Storytelling requires more than mere authorship. I will return to this below.

Modules aren't required to provide mechanics and the game rules are suggestions, not universal. A DM needs to have rules for those items if they are going to use the module, but that's part of converting any module to anyone's game.
I am certain that hundreds, probably thousands, of GMs have picked up White Plume Mountain and run it without having a rule for handling the frictionless corridor. In fact, given that the number of crazy schemes players might come up with to shatter the pyramidal water-tanks, to cross the hanging discs, and to traverse the frictionless corridor is in practical terms unlimited, it would be futile to even try to work out rules for it all.

Rather, GMs do what Moldvay advised them to do: they reason counterfactually from the imagined starting point and the hypothesised PC action to a stipulated outcome (or stipulated probability of an outcome). This role of the fiction in RPG play is what distinguishes RPGing from other forms of game, in which the permissible moves are confined to a predetermined list. And it has nothing to do with storytelling.

One reason why RPGs need a referee is because a key element of RPGs as games is that adjudication requires counterfactual reasoning within imagined situations: RPGs need someone who is empowered to stipulate the outcome of such counterfactuals. (Scientists doing thought experiments don't need referees, because the outcomes are entailed. No stipulation by a reasonable but independent party is required.)

The thing is: the imaginary is existent

<snip>

Which doesn't make games fictional.
This is confusing and, I think, confused.

Games obviously are not fictional. For instance it is true, not fictional, that I played both D&D and Battleship on the weekend.

The imaginary, on the other hand, does not exist. There are no unicorns. There is no Middle Earth, nor was there ever a Hyborean Age. (Though obviously both Tolkien and REH drew on real things and real events in authoring those fictions.) Note that something being fictional does not entail anyone has told any stories: REH's essay describing the Hyborean Age is not really a story, for instance, though it is clearly the product of an episode of authorship.

Characterization has been called an emergent act of playing old school D&D. But since the characters are so much like us I think it's easier to say than about playing Tetris, which is also very much about game play IMO and not expressing a personality.
Characterisation may be an emergent property of playing old school D&D. But for many D&D players it is not an emergent element but a core goal. And this has been so for the 30-odd years that I've been RPGing.

Someone who purported to be playing Tetris, but who let a block go because s/he "liked the look of it", arguably is not playing Tetris at all. S/he is doing some other sort of thing with the Tetris machine.

But a D&D player who decides that his/her PC spares a rescued prisoner or defeated enemy because s/he "likes the look of it" is not failing to play D&D, and doing some other thing. Making action declarations for PCs on the basis of their imagined emotional responses to the imagined situations in which they find themselves is a core element of play for many people. At which point it is no longer "emergent". Nor is the imagined emotional response "mere colour". It has become a crucial contributing factor to the play of the game.

Could you source any of this terminology from the 70s, 80s, or even early 90s? Scene framing, conflicts, "resolution" mechanics and the rest were developed by the Forge, a community that left out every idea about pattern recognition (e.g. strategizing) in games altogether.
In 1995 Iron Crown Enterprises published GM Law for the Rolemaster Standard System. It has a 17-page chapter called "Story Design', which includes a sub-section on "Pacing". And in a different chapter, called "The Session", there is a heading called "Scenes and Events", which - on pp 69-70 - includes the following text:

A scene is a series of dramatic presentations that are related to one another by setting and time. Scenes are the primary tool you will use (as a GM) to deliver information about the game to the players. . . When you are preparing for each session, you should envision the upcoming session as a series of potential scenes to be played through. Even if you do not know exactly what the outcome of each scene is, you should have in mind a series of possible scenes.​

I don't know that this is especially good advice, but it clearly illustrates that ICE regarded such matter as scene-framing, and the outcomes of scenes, and pacing, as important matters. And ICE and RM were hardly cutting-edge in this respect.

Another book I have ready to hand is Night's Dark Terror, a B/X module published by TSR in March 1986. On pp 2-3 it has the following text:

In the opening phases [of the adventure], the order of events is clearly defined, but as the adventure progresses, more opportunities are provided to let you shape the exact course of the adventure. . . For example, the adventurers must go to Sukiskyn . . . before exploring the surrounding woods . . . Similarly, some encounter areas can only be discovered after certain information has been gathered. . . [W]here the ordering of specific encounters is important, this is made clear in the text.​

It strike me as obvious that "encounter" in the quoted passage is used in much the same sense as it is in the 4e rulebooks - namely, to describe an imagined situation described by the GM and obliging the PCs to act in some fashion - rather than as it is used by Gygax, to describe a meeting between the PCs and some monster or NPC that results from adjudicating the PCs' movements on the GM's map.

The authors don't use the language of "scene-framing" but they are clearly thinking about it. And in fact if they had had the term available, they might have been able to give better advice about how to run their adventure, which I know from experience need not be as railroad-y as the quoted passage might suggest.

Another distinctive feature of Night's Dark Terror, which relates to the idea of "characterisation" and also to the idea of a scene being an imagined situation that "obliges" the PCs to act, is that the module takes for granted that some of the players' choices for their PCs will be governed by the imagined emotional responses of the PCs to various NPCs and monsters. (For instance, the authors take for granted that the PCs will try and rescue captured homesteaders, and seek the defeat of their persecutors, because the PCs feel sympathy for the former and antipathy towards the latter.)

Unlike White Plume Mountain, therefore, Night's Dark Terror assumes not just what all RPGing assumes - namely, that a fiction will be authored - but that the participants care about generating a story via play, with scenes connected not just by whim but by an underlying emotional or thematic logic emerging from the protagonists.

As I said, Night's Dark Terror is 1986. But of course it's not the first module of this kind; the Dragonlance series begins in 1984, and has similar aspirations and rests on similar assumptions, although I personally think Night's Dark Terror is much more successful. But I doubt that these published examples of this sort of approach were spun by their authors from whole cloth. As with most RPG publishing, I believe they will have had their origins in the prior actual play experiences of their authors.

To reiterate: story telling is not inherent to RPGing, although the authoring of fictions (which is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition of storytelling) is. The existence of modules like ToH and White Plume Mountain is sufficient proof of both these claims. (And you are just wrong to say that The Forge thinks all RPGing, let along all gaming, is story telling. Ron Edwards has an essay on non-storytelling RPGing. He can also tell the difference between an RPG and a wargame. The former involves fictions - imagined situations - as a necessary component; the latter doesn't. He correctly identifies M:tG as a wargame, not an RPG or a near-RPG. Someone who plays a Shivan Dragon might emulate it's roar, but this is like my joke about a "radar error" in Battleship: the authored fiction is mere colour that has no bearing on gameplay. Whereas in an RPG it would matter to resolution: my PC can try and fry eggs on a red dragon's scales, for instance, and the GM has to adjudicate that attempt even though there is no algorithm in any edition of D&D for egg-frying via draconic heat.)

But though story telling is not inherent to RPGing, the idea that RPGing might be done in some way that involves story telling (or something very like it) as an important aspect or aim is not some 21st-century novelty: the existence of a mid-80s module like Night's Dark Terror is sufficient proof of that.
 
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There is no need to source the terminilogy. The terminology may have been developed by the Forge (I'm not familiar enough with them to say one way or the other), but these elements existed before they codified it.

Much like roles were codified (Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller) in 4E, but roles (not necessarily those 4 as they existed in 4e) existed before 4E they just weren't codified as such.

Much like fire existed before it was ever called fire.
Strangely enough, that's the position many would accuse me of taking. That there is such a thing as fire and not the narrative of fire. I don't go so far, at least for the designing of games. I strongly doubt anyone advancing narrative absolutism would claim the Forge's ideas are discovered descriptives rather than invented narratives in their own right.
 

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