D&D 5E The imbalance of ASI levels in non-spellcasting classes

[Ashrym]

No.

Gained at 5th level, not 4th. Like the extra die gained by cantrips.

What cantrips would those be?

Cantrips gain the extra die at 5th level, just like classes that typically add extra attack. The difference cantrips do not add ability score damage.

4th level is where feats possibly facilitate damage for weapons more than they do for cantrips.

Perhaps you're forgetting the damage-dealing cantrips like Firebolt and Eldritch Blast?

Only because the damage is forgettable, lol. Agonizing blast is what's not forgettable.

For most builds, cantrips are still better than throwing darts or shooting a crossbow.

Not until 6th or 11th level depending on the cantrip. Or 17th in the case of vicious mockery. Damage cantrips are given as an option for more damage than the lower damage cantrips with added effects but I would argue the added effects are usually the reason to use cantrips.

People don't take vicious mockery, chill touch, or shocking grasp for the damage but they are still useful.

Perhaps you're forgetting the fact that a 1st-level fighter with two shortswords and the dual-weapon-fighting fighting style can deal an average (assuming a dex of 16) of 13 damage at will.

That seems like more than the average fire bolt.

A crossbow does more damage than the average firebolt at low levels. It's 5.5 for the cantrip because there's no damage modifier from ability score. 16 DEX gives the crossbow 7.5 average damage.

Heavier weapons and fighting styles increase that gap. Monks get a bonus action attack by default using a staff as a versatile weapon or fighters use dueling style for +2 damage as examples.

A great sword (10 damage) does nearly twice the damage as the average firebolt, the monk gets DEX bonus to damage on each attack (13 damage total) so starts more than twice firebolt, and dueling keeps the shield and also does nearly twice (9.5 damage).

TWF is an example of more damage but it doesn't take the fighting style or TWF to be more damage.

At the opportunity cost of shield use plus a variety of other weapon and fighting style related stuff, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

It's also the ability to attack 2 opponents. At low levels this can drop opponents more quickly than the incoming attacks hit that would have missed from the shields. It's twice the damage for 10% more likelihood to get hit and worth it at the time, and for things like kobolds drops them a lot faster.

The fighting style doesn't scale well for fighters or in comparison to great weapon master or sharpshooter, which is more of the issue.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The average damage output of a 5th-level fighter over 10 rounds is more consistent than the damage output of a wizard, and fighters are harder to hit overall.

More consistent, yes. Less? Often not.
Cantrip damage is deliberately less than martial class attack damage because spell damage is often higher.
The wizard that drops a fireball on the pack of enemies at the beginning of combat and then uses cantrips for the next two rounds probably has a higher total damage than the fighter: just "spikier" and less consistent.

Not until 6th or 11th level depending on the cantrip. Or 17th in the case of vicious mockery. Damage cantrips are given as an option for more damage than the lower damage cantrips with added effects but I would argue the added effects are usually the reason to use cantrips.

People don't take vicious mockery, chill touch, or shocking grasp for the damage but they are still useful.

If you say so. I remember that Chill Touch was the go-to damage spell for the last wizard I played. I'd guess that around 50% of my actions in combat were casting it.

A crossbow does more damage than the average firebolt at low levels. It's 5.5 for the cantrip because there's no damage modifier from ability score. 16 DEX gives the crossbow 7.5 average damage.

16 Dex isn't bad for a low-level ranged weapon specialist, but I don't think that its typical for most wizards. I'd suggest that once you factor the chance to hit into the equation, Firebolt looks reasonable.
Particularly if you're playing a wizard because you like the idea of a magic-user throwing spells most of the time and don't want to have to yomp a crossbow around with you.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

@Quartz :

Here is the draft for my idea.

Cool! Play it at the table and let us know how it goes. I'm always interested to hear playtest results.

 

[cmad1977]

The answer, as usual is:
No.

 

[Ashrym]

If you say so. I remember that Chill Touch was the go-to damage spell for the last wizard I played. I'd guess that around 50% of my actions in combat were casting it.

Chill touch does less damage than firebolt. It also prevents healing and causes undead to attack with disadvantage.

If damage was the important distinction then a higher damage spell would be more prominent. In your example you are using a spell with less damage. I think that demonstrates my point.

16 Dex isn't bad for a low-level ranged weapon specialist, but I don't think that its typical for most wizards. I'd suggest that once you factor the chance to hit into the equation, Firebolt looks reasonable.
Particularly if you're playing a wizard because you like the idea of a magic-user throwing spells most of the time and don't want to have to yomp a crossbow around with you.

Everyone need AC. Point buy or spread generally gives a toss up of DEX or CON. I find 14 DEX is pretty common on an arcane spell casters. The problem is you just said chill touch was your go-to spell for the last wizard you played and then counter my next point with a cantrip you weren't using as a standard.

Even with the accuracy difference the crossbow does more damage on average than firebolt while the misses over the course of a day that would have hit are only 1 or 2. Chill touch is better because of the extra effect, or just skip damage spells altogether until another cantrip is picked up at 4th level in favor of the more utility non-damage cantrips.

I think the bigger determiner is how a person wants to see the character. I'd go crossbow for the better damage until 5th level.

This is another caster vs non-caster thread, however. Weapons definitely beat cantrips for damage. Weapons don't stop healing.

 

[Fenris-77]

The ability to attack two opponents at low levels, while both true and useful, doesn't really move the needle much IMO. Once you pull in all the styles and whatnot you're comparing a fighters primary feature with what is essentially a spellcaster's back-up feature (cantrips). If cantrips did more damage than a fighter's weapons the game would be completely broken, so it's maybe not odd that the math is what it is.

 

[Ashrym]

The ability to attack two opponents at low levels, while both true and useful, doesn't really move the needle much IMO. Once you pull in all the styles and whatnot you're comparing a fighters primary feature with what is essentially a spellcaster's back-up feature (cantrips). If cantrips did more damage than a fighter's weapons the game would be completely broken, so it's maybe not odd that the math is what it is.

Cantrips aren't much of a "back up feature" when the caster only has 2 or 3 spell slots, lol. They are the norm. They do become a back up feature soon enough but not so much in the levels discussed.

 

[Fenris-77]

If you want to pick a narrow slice of levels that's ok, but it's distorting the numbers from what's true of the larger picture. Twin Weapon Fighting is OK over that thin slice of levels but is enormously sub-optimal generally. Cantrips are more important over that thin slice of levels, but less so generally. Context is important here, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Ashrym]

If you want to pick a narrow slice of levels that's ok, but it's distorting the numbers from what's true of the larger picture. Twin Weapon Fighting is OK over that thin slice of levels but is enormously sub-optimal generally. Cantrips are more important over that thin slice of levels, but less so generally. Context is important here, that's all I'm saying.

It was the level range being discussed at the time. Changing that is moving the goal posts but gets to extra attack overshadowing a single die increase at 5th level and various other bonuses getting multiplied through extra attack as levels increase.

Low levels is when it's the closest. I pointed out TWF doesn't scale with fighter extra attacks or feats like sharpshooter and great weapon master so I think your context is simply repeating it in another way. Being clear is always good.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Cool! Play it at the table and let us know how it goes. I'm always interested to hear playtest results.

It won't be for a while, but will do.

For another preview, since it is only 10 levels, I came up with a neat idea (well, I think so anyway) for hit points. Based on my other thread about HD and hit points, I've decided for the L10 Variant to do this:

Hit Dice and Hit Points
This variant does not use maximum hit points at first level. It also does not allow you to take the average when you advance a level.

Hit Dice. You have one hit die (HD) as determined normally by your class for each level.

Hit Points. At 1st level, you roll your hit die with advantage, adding your Constitution modifier and another ability score modifier of your choice (other than Constitution).

After 1st level, you roll only one hit die for each level, but add your Constitution modifier and choose another ability score modifier (other than Constitution) to add as well.

Ex. You are playing a barbarian so roll 2d12 at level 1, getting a 4 and a 9. You take the higher roll, 9, and add 6 points (3 for CON 16 and 3 for STR 16). When you reach 2nd level, you roll a d12 and add 6 more.

Of course, you can do max hp at level 1, but I have never liked it, especially when adding the other ideas for hit points in L10.

The idea of allowing a player to choose a second ability score to add to hp is due to the abstract nature of hp that our group plays with. If you add DEX, the bonus hp represent your ability to avoid harm. If you add CHA, the bonus hp are your will to live, etc. Everyone gets CON, and now everyone gets a second choice as well.

For someone like a Fighter, let's assume STR and CON will combine for maybe +8 by the end (at level 10). This would give the Fighter about 137 hp on average, which is about 33 hp more than if I just did the normal hp rules and stopped at level 10.