5E The imbalance of ASI levels in non-spellcasting classes

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Thanks. I've looked into 13th Age and I am not a fan of it at a glance. In a lot of ways it seems more complex, but perhaps I just haven't given it a fair shot? I should have some time this afternoon so I might give it another look.
13th age is pretty simple.
 

Cap'n Kobold

Adventurer
The dirty little secret is, these things do mediocre damage. At even mid levels, you should not be using them. Not even EB with buffing stuff on them. They should be a last resort, or for easy encounters. They just don't keep up, in any meaingful way, with even ordinary attacks from fighter-types at those levels.
They're not intended to "keep up" with fighter-type attacks. They're there to give a meaningful action when you've run out of spell slots, or don't want to.

For most builds, cantrips are still better than throwing darts or shooting a crossbow. :)
 

Aebir-Toril

Is lukewarm on the Forgotten Realms
Perhaps you're forgetting the damage-dealing cantrips like Firebolt and Eldritch Blast?
Perhaps you're forgetting the fact that a 1st-level fighter with two shortswords and the dual-weapon-fighting fighting style can deal an average (assuming a dex of 16) of 13 damage at will.

That seems like more than the average fire bolt.
 

Aebir-Toril

Is lukewarm on the Forgotten Realms
Who said anything about major abilities?
You did, by mentioning the Monk's Slow Fall ability, and implying a fix to a problem that does not exist.

The average damage output of a 5th-level fighter over 10 rounds is more consistent than the damage output of a wizard, and fighters are harder to hit overall.

Your idea is a solution looking for a problem.
 
Perhaps you're forgetting the fact that a 1st-level fighter with two shortswords and the dual-weapon-fighting fighting style can deal an average (assuming a dex of 16) of 13 damage at will.

That seems like more than the average fire bolt.
At the opportunity cost of shield use plus a variety of other weapon and fighting style related stuff, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
 

Aebir-Toril

Is lukewarm on the Forgotten Realms
At the opportunity cost of shield use plus a variety of other weapon and fighting style related stuff, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Well yes, of course, I must concede this point.

I still disagree with @Quartz on this, but your point is fair.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
It is not, in fact, beside the point.

Was your initial post not about a 'fix' for martial classes?
Yes, and I explicitly mention the Monk's Slow Fall ability as the exception. Guess what the Barbarian, the Fighter, and the Rogue get at level 4 apart from the ASI? Nothing! Full spellcasters get the ASI and an extra spell.
 

Aebir-Toril

Is lukewarm on the Forgotten Realms
Yes, and I explicitly mention the Monk's Slow Fall ability as the exception. Guess what the Barbarian, the Fighter, and the Rogue get at level 4 apart from the ASI? Nothing! Full spellcasters get the ASI and an extra spell.
That was my point... that such things as the Monk's ability are not necessary because of all of the other abilities that martial classes receive at different levels, as well as the consistent power level of many of those abilities.

The reason full spellcasters receive two advances at once is because, IMHO, they are less consistent, and more "burst" focused.

In addition, the nature of full spellcasters is that their exploration and social encounter abilities, as well as their combat abilities, hinge on spells which can be gained at once, offering them more possibilities at the cost of consistency (unless you're a sorcerer).
 
If you look at the spellcasting classes,...

Does this need correction?
Yes, but fiddling with ASIs and 'dead' levels is hardly even a faltering half-step in that direction.

Setting aside the class imbalances, as insoluble for the moment, it would make a lot more sense to index the basic 5 ASIs everyone gets to character level, rather than class.
 

ccs

40th lv DM
If you look at the spellcasting classes, their spellcasting improves at every level, including the levels that get ASIs. Contrast that with the classes that don't cast spells: apart from the Monk getting Slow Fall at 4th level the non-spellcasters (Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Monk) don't get anything apart from ASIs at those levels.

Does this need correction?
Nope.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Setting aside the class imbalances, as insoluble for the moment, it would make a lot more sense to index the basic 5 ASIs everyone gets to character level, rather than class.
That would be a step... ASIs and Multi-Strikes both could get their own character level based advancement with a bonus if you have n levels of fighter on both.
 

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