The Immortals Handbook

[Zhnov]

I'll be disappointed ...

Shucks, I'm disappointed already. In fact, I hate looking at this thread... that's how much it bugs me. Recently, I just decided to give up. :\ That was the only way I can stand the wait...

I'm still going to buy it !

Z.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I have a comment/question about Strength, carrying capacity, scaling, and physical factor.

In the past you've mentioned that you thought damage scaled poorly with Strength -- if Strength 200-300 is enough to lift the world, then +120 damage or so is small.

Exactly.

To what degree did this carrying capacity scaling affect your design choices, vs. other measures of what damage/Strength mean?

For myself, I think I'll just redo the carrying capacity system, since there's an easy fix for it.

I'm slightly confused as to what you are actually asking me? So this may not be what you want...

...however, from strength alone, base damage should be increasing x1.5 for every 15 points of strength. In part you could probably tie this in with density. This does not stack with strength granted due to greater size/mass.

I'll be disappointed if the print version isn't out by my *following* birthday. I imagine that after the book leaves your hands, there could be more delays on the (yet-unnamed) publisher's part that slows the process down further.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Shucks, I'm disappointed already. In fact, I hate looking at this thread... that's how much it bugs me. Recently, I just decided to give up. :\ That was the only way I can stand the wait...

I'm still going to buy it !

Hey Zhnov mate, I can only say sorry at this stage and thanks (to everyone) for hanging in there.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I'm slightly confused as to what you are actually asking me? So this may not be what you want...

...however, from strength alone, base damage should be increasing x1.5 for every 15 points of strength. In part you could probably tie this in with density. This does not stack with strength granted due to greater size/mass.

I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.

Yes, thank you for explaining it better. That's exactly what I mean.

Since the 'normal' range for PC strength (at lower levels, obviously) is 10-20, the obvious carrying capacity equation (Str)^2 gives the same carrying capacity at Str 0, 10, and 20 -- a useful scaling method. This makes large Str more reasonable, and takes away the second scaling rule for Str below 10.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.

I am curious if that would also entail you changing the strength bonuses for size?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I am curious if that would also entail you changing the strength bonuses for size?

I don't change the Str modifiers, but I change the size modifiers to carrying capacity.

It lets strength by size be regularized. Assuming that dead-lift strength is proportional to cross-sectional area, DL ~ d^2, and the size modifiers by size category is x2 for each size larger (same as it works now) and /2 for each size smaller (different than now, since Small is x3/4 in the PH), then Str ~ d so for creatures of a similar build, doubling size (increasing category by +1) doubles the Str score. Generally, of course, the same build won't be feasable with a larger creature, so the Str scores won't quite double.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

...tried posting this a bit earlier but the boards ground to a halt.

I don't change the Str modifiers, but I change the size modifiers to carrying capacity.

It lets strength by size be regularized. Assuming that dead-lift strength is proportional to cross-sectional area, DL ~ d^2, and the size modifiers by size category is x2 for each size larger (same as it works now) and /2 for each size smaller (different than now, since Small is x3/4 in the PH), then Str ~ d so for creatures of a similar build, doubling size (increasing category by +1) doubles the Str score. Generally, of course, the same build won't be feasable with a larger creature, so the Str scores won't quite double.

I am trying to visualise this, can you give me an example and explain how this solves the problems of high strength/low damage.

Thanks.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I am trying to visualise this, can you give me an example and explain how this solves the problems of high strength/low damage.

I just made two changes to address carrying capacities for high Strengths: change how smaller sizes carry weight (x1/2 per category below Medium), and use a new chart. Here's a part of the new chart for Medium bipeds:

10......100
11......121
12......144
13......169
...
20......400
21......441
22......484
...
50....2500
51....2601
52....2704

This way the carrying capacities stay sane, and the normal PC amounts aren't much changed. For a Medium biped, Str 100 gives a heavy load of 5 tons instead of 13 107 tons under the PH system.

 

[historian]

Hey Krust!

At no point could the characters destroy the universe in one blast although Sin Shenron and SS4 Gogeta would be very close. Presumably SS4 Goku's Universal Spirit Bomb is pretty much right on the button.

Any comments?

By the way I am thinking that (extrapolating the above procedure) perhaps dividing Power Level by 2 could determine character level as that sort of fits if we continue the Monk Damage above 20th.

While I've never watched much DBZ, that equation would yield the following CR/ELs:

SS4 Goku = CR 1,650,000,000/EL 121
Sin Shenron (after absorbing dragon balls) = CR 5,000,000,000/EL 127
Goku (fused w/Shenron aadb) = CR 125,000,000,000 /EL 145



That should cover most campaigns, but still a far cry from HOU Thanos (if he is a supreme being/metaversal) who is:

CR 8E24/EL 325

Assuming, of course, that 8E24 is the going estimate. In fact, Goku fused w/Shenron would be closer to a rat than to HOU Thanos based on EL.

It boggles the mind.