The Immortals Handbook

[CRGreathouse]

- WotC are themselves confused how to rate Fast Healing. Given that the Rapid Healing ring (in the ELH) costs 300,000 GP. That ring converts into a Divine Ability rather than a feat.

Somewhat, but also remember that's just the first point surcharge -- beyond the first point, FH isn't that great.

Fast Healing 1 would be the weakest Divine Gift I can imagine... surely all the others are better?

The alternative may just be to make the Fast Healing = HD/Levels a Divine Ability and forget about a buffer FH ability and just use the ELH FH epic feat as a prereq.

This, I think, is an excellent conclusion. In fact, if I may step out onto a limb, I will say that it is the correct conclusion.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey CR!

Somewhat, but also remember that's just the first point surcharge -- beyond the first point, FH isn't that great.

Fast Healing 1 would be the weakest Divine Gift I can imagine... surely all the others are better?

Yes its much too weak a Divine Ability in the aftermath of the ELH feats.

For the record, divine abilities are generally rated at between +1-1.5 CR.

This, I think, is an excellent conclusion. In fact, if I may step out onto a limb, I will say that it is the correct conclusion.

Thats probably what I will run with.

 

[Fieari]

I was once again thinking about the IH while planning my recent campaign. I'm -really- looking forewards to it, since it seems to cover all the bases. Specifically, I'd love to use it to design a god-level character race that features prominantly in the campaign. Basically, I'd like to know whether your handbook has rules to cover the following-- I'm betting it does, but it's nice to know for certain.

You said that as beings go up in power, they lose interest in smaller things. I have a race of beings that feature prominently in my campaign which, as they gain power, GAIN interest in smaller things. Would that mean that they're starting out in VERY high deity levels and then moving DOWN the ranks as they "level up"? It seems that way at a glance to me...

Anyway, what REALLY caught my eye was that you mentioned a difference between planes and dimensions, which is something I also had to deal with. Since both Phoenix and Dragon can work with time as well as with space, through what context do they move? And of course, time is just a dimension...

The math of infinity DOES make sense to me, and I love it. I started by reading Flatland, which explains dimensional things in story form. Awesome book, was written in the 1800s by a school teacher to his (I think) elementary school kids. It's that simple to pick up.

Anyway. So if we're 3-D creatures, able to move any which way 3-D, but move only one way in 4-D... then you can extend that concept higher. Extending 3 dimensions infinitely, you get past through to the future, each moment being a slice of three dimensions. So 5-D would be extending 4-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of three dimensions. I see this as the so called "trousers of time"... the tree of possibilities people talked about. All the "might have beens". If you can move freely in 4 dimensions, you're moving fixedly through 5.

Extending 5-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of a 5 dimensional system, I see this as the multiverse... the various planes and such. Each plane has its own possibility tree, after all... so moving about 5-D freely, means moving about the planes fixedly. 6-D is then "the great wheel".

So what would 7-D be? An infinite number of great wheels... the only way I can think to describe this would be "Narrative Sets". You know, the Marvel Universe as compared to the DC universe. Or to Robert Jordan's universe, or Peirs Anthony's, or Douglas Adam's, or the real one. After all, you can have a campaign that destroys "all planes in existance" but the real world isn't effected...

And that's where my imagination gives up. 8-D would be an infinite number of narrative sets, but I can't imagine this. On the other hand, there's no reason to suppose that you can't extend 7-D infinitely... in fact, there could very well be an infinite progression of dimensions.

Is this the way you are handling "Dimensions"? Is it at all similar? I need to know, because I have characters that fight between dimensions. Any being that can move freely in a higher dimension is infinitely more powerful than a lower dimensional being, after all... to put it simply, a time traveler could kill you yesterday, or your parents, or now even by stabbing you a moment before. But two time travelers, and I mean REAL time travelers as in someone who can move forewards or backwards with similar ease, not just "go to an earlier date and move forewards as usual" would be able to have a swordfight that's a little more interesing... having to worry about the additional directions of being attacked from the past or the future instead of just left/right/up/down/forewards/backwards. But those too.

I was thinking that when applied to a game, a higher dimensional creature is just assumed to be able to dispatch out of hand a lower dimensional creature. But for equal dimensional duels... those can get interesting. Despite not being able to imagine what an 8th dimensional battle could possibly look like (or a 9th, or a 10th, etc etc etc) mathematics could easily describe rules for it. Each dimension adds two more flanks to worry about... for a game, it means having to have your character train to pay attention to those two additional flanks each time. Something that could scale. Do you have anything like that?

The really neat thing is that with this system, as you mentioned, each dimension could have it's own supreme being (hehe... finding the 2-D supreme being might be amusing, and of course, the 1-D supreme being is the only being in the 1-D world, which is even more amusing...) and that there is always something higher. You gotta imagine though... could there be something at the top of even all this? The Infinite-D supreme being? Does your system handle that?

Heh. Lots of theoretical math concepts here. Hope I don't overwhelm you.

Definitely looking forewards to it comming out. You will be recieving my money at that time. Hope additional word comes.

 

[Anabstercorian]

There is a book you would LOVE, called The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator. TERRIBLE title, really fantastic story about translation in to higher-dimensional realities, and the organization that keeps them from interacting any more than necessary. It raises wild possibilities. Check it out at your local library if at all possible.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I have a question about the epic feats you considered revising. In your system for rating CR, there's really no accounting for stacking rules: a +1 attack bonus is worth a fixed amount, so there's no real reason under your system to care if Weapon Focus (for example) stacks with itself.

(This is in contrast to systems that rate bonuses more strongly the higher they become -- for example, +4 attack could be 16 times better than +1 instead of 4 times better.)

With this in mind, why do you see the stacking of Great Smiting as such a major issue, one of the only feats you'd change in the whole ELH? It doesn't even seem that popular of a feat to me.

Granted, it was written for 3.0 which assumes smites would be 1/day. Still, though, I'd expect a change to weaken the feat in that case rather than eliminate stacking.

Care to elucidate your mental process here?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Fieari!

sorry for the delay guys, had some stuff to take care of today, so I was away from the computer.

I was once again thinking about the IH while planning my recent campaign. I'm -really- looking forewards to it, since it seems to cover all the bases.

Well I think it does, at least it covers every question ever asked of it...and thats a helluva lot a' questions.

Specifically, I'd love to use it to design a god-level character race that features prominantly in the campaign.

Like the LeShay for instance?

Basically, I'd like to know whether your handbook has rules to cover the following-- I'm betting it does, but it's nice to know for certain.

You said that as beings go up in power, they lose interest in smaller things.

Well, like soldiers. The higher up the ranks you go, the less you concentrate on the individual.

But the higher up you go the more you generally become focused on concepts and less on the individual.

I have a race of beings that feature prominently in my campaign which, as they gain power, GAIN interest in smaller things.

Can you give an example?

Would that mean that they're starting out in VERY high deity levels and then moving DOWN the ranks as they "level up"? It seems that way at a glance to me...

I'd need to hear more about them, though I don't think so.

Anyway, what REALLY caught my eye was that you mentioned a difference between planes and dimensions, which is something I also had to deal with.

There are lots of ways of addressing it, I sort of like to be able to explain things scientifically as well as esoterically.

Since both Phoenix and Dragon can work with time as well as with space, through what context do they move? And of course, time is just a dimension...

Phoenix & Dragon...?

The math of infinity DOES make sense to me, and I love it. I started by reading Flatland, which explains dimensional things in story form. Awesome book, was written in the 1800s by a school teacher to his (I think) elementary school kids. It's that simple to pick up.

Anyway. So if we're 3-D creatures, able to move any which way 3-D, but move only one way in 4-D... then you can extend that concept higher. Extending 3 dimensions infinitely, you get past through to the future, each moment being a slice of three dimensions. So 5-D would be extending 4-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of three dimensions. I see this as the so called "trousers of time"... the tree of possibilities people talked about. All the "might have beens". If you can move freely in 4 dimensions, you're moving fixedly through 5.

I'm with you up to this point, however after this my own ideas diverge from yours.

Extending 5-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of a 5 dimensional system, I see this as the multiverse... the various planes and such. Each plane has its own possibility tree, after all... so moving about 5-D freely, means moving about the planes fixedly. 6-D is then "the great wheel".

The difficulty I have with your approximation of the 6th is that it causes us to assume that each plane has its own 'you', does it not?

So what would 7-D be? An infinite number of great wheels... the only way I can think to describe this would be "Narrative Sets". You know, the Marvel Universe as compared to the DC universe. Or to Robert Jordan's universe, or Peirs Anthony's, or Douglas Adam's, or the real one. After all, you can have a campaign that destroys "all planes in existance" but the real world isn't effected...

And that's where my imagination gives up. 8-D would be an infinite number of narrative sets, but I can't imagine this. On the other hand, there's no reason to suppose that you can't extend 7-D infinitely... in fact, there could very well be an infinite progression of dimensions.

Is this the way you are handling "Dimensions"? Is it at all similar?

Its similar.

I have 12 Dimensions. Although they go from 0-11th

0 of course being Byss, the place of nothingness and Entropy.

11 being the Akashic Records, or M-Dimension (Mother Dimension) for those of you who like their science.

1-3 is of course space.

4 is of course time.

5-10 I'll keep under wraps for now. Three are fairly obvious and three are not so obvious.

I need to know, because I have characters that fight between dimensions. Any being that can move freely in a higher dimension is infinitely more powerful than a lower dimensional being, after all... to put it simply, a time traveler could kill you yesterday, or your parents, or now even by stabbing you a moment before. But two time travelers, and I mean REAL time travelers as in someone who can move forewards or backwards with similar ease, not just "go to an earlier date and move forewards as usual" would be able to have a swordfight that's a little more interesing... having to worry about the additional directions of being attacked from the past or the future instead of just left/right/up/down/forewards/backwards. But those too.

Indeed.

However, there are beings who may not be of that dimension that are protected against it.

eg. One of the Cosmic Abilities is called Slipstream. This means you exist in a self contained temporal bubble. Even though you cannot travel through time, no one can affect you by temporal means.

Obviously I have other dimensions covered as well.

I was thinking that when applied to a game, a higher dimensional creature is just assumed to be able to dispatch out of hand a lower dimensional creature.

See above.

Also just because something is of the 6th-Dimension, doesn't necessarily mean its of the first five.

But for equal dimensional duels... those can get interesting. Despite not being able to imagine what an 8th dimensional battle could possibly look like (or a 9th, or a 10th, etc etc etc) mathematics could easily describe rules for it.

One of the illustrations I am doing for the book is a 10D battle.

Each dimension adds two more flanks to worry about... for a game, it means having to have your character train to pay attention to those two additional flanks each time. Something that could scale. Do you have anything like that?

I am not sure I agree with that assessment. Space has 3 dimensions, but time is itself only a single dimension.

The really neat thing is that with this system, as you mentioned, each dimension could have it's own supreme being (hehe... finding the 2-D supreme being might be amusing, and of course, the 1-D supreme being is the only being in the 1-D world, which is even more amusing...) and that there is always something higher. You gotta imagine though... could there be something at the top of even all this? The Infinite-D supreme being? Does your system handle that?

If people want to create beings above the Akashic Records they are free to do so but I don't think it will be necessary when you see the book.

Heh. Lots of theoretical math concepts here. Hope I don't overwhelm you.

I don't overwhelm that easy.

Definitely looking forewards to it comming out. You will be recieving my money at that time. Hope additional word comes.

I appreciate the support mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anabstercorian!

There is a book you would LOVE, called The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator. TERRIBLE title, really fantastic story about translation in to higher-dimensional realities, and the organization that keeps them from interacting any more than necessary. It raises wild possibilities. Check it out at your local library if at all possible.

I went to the local library today and ordered it, says they should have it in a week. Thanks.

I also asked about the Mysteries of the Aleph (historian) but they said they didn't have that book (yet?). Though they did have three books by that author.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I have a question about the epic feats you considered revising. In your system for rating CR, there's really no accounting for stacking rules: a +1 attack bonus is worth a fixed amount, so there's no real reason under your system to care if Weapon Focus (for example) stacks with itself.

(This is in contrast to systems that rate bonuses more strongly the higher they become -- for example, +4 attack could be 16 times better than +1 instead of 4 times better.)

With this in mind, why do you see the stacking of Great Smiting as such a major issue, one of the only feats you'd change in the whole ELH? It doesn't even seem that popular of a feat to me.

Granted, it was written for 3.0 which assumes smites would be 1/day. Still, though, I'd expect a change to weaken the feat in that case rather than eliminate stacking.

Care to elucidate your mental process here?

Obviously I had 3.5 in mind.

A hasted 30th-level Paladin with Great Smiting x4 could EASILY dish out 900 damage against an evil opponent. Even assuming the paladin misses with one attack, hes still pretty much guaranteed to kill any evil opponent below Lesser Power.

Compare that against any four feats for any other class. Theres nothing that gives you that much of an advantage.

 

[CRGreathouse]

A hasted 30th-level Paladin with Great Smiting x4 could EASILY dish out 900 damage against an evil opponent. Even assuming the paladin misses with one attack, hes still pretty much guaranteed to kill any evil opponent below Lesser Power.

Compare that against any four feats for any other class. Theres nothing that gives you that much of an advantage.

So why not halve the benefit (1.5 times class level instead of double) instead of limiting the numbver of times it can be taken?

 

[Fieari]

Well, like soldiers. The higher up the ranks you go, the less you concentrate on the individual.

But the higher up you go the more you generally become focused on concepts and less on the individual.

Can you give an example?

Well, I had been trying to avoid going into too much depth of my own stuff, since this thread is more focusing on yours, but...

My god-like races are, as I very briefly mentioned, known as Phoenii and Dragons. They're very loosely based on a concept I found in a comic book (well, actually, if anything deserves being called a graphic novel it's this) called "Thieves and Kings"... which describes a flat world that expands over time. And functions something like a cookie. A small cookie you can hold in your hand, but a cookie the size of a tabletop would crumble to bits if you picked it up. In Thieves & Kings, the Dragons' role is to eat the edges of the world so it never gets too big. (Aside: one of the major plot points is a runt dragon (only the size of a single mountain range) who decides to go eat cities instead of hills)

I took that concept, applied it to planes instead of just a single world, and added a flipside to the dragons... beings who are the ones causing the world to grow. Phoenii. A Phoenix and a Dragon will invariably hate each other, as the Phoenix will see the dragons as destroyers of worlds, esspecially destroyers of worlds they made, and the dragon will see the phoenix as the cause to the whole cookie problem and a huge troublemaker. And they often fight over specific worlds too.

The thing is, while a dragon acts like you said, starting small and gaining power over, for lack of a better word, time (both dragon and phoenix can, as I mentioned, move completely freely through time) the phoenix starts LARGE and works his way down. To put it another way, begins with a blunt axe and then moves on to a surgical knife, except that the blunt axe in question is astronomically huge, and the surgical knife can eventually become microscopic in scope....

So while they being being able to devestate stars or tear apart planes (although, only a completely insane phoenix would ever dream of doing so-- and they hunt down their insane to prevent such) they can't do jack on a local level. But since they're interested in CRAFTING worlds, all the important bits are in the details... so as they progress in power, they go from galactic scale efforts to system efforts to planatary efforts right on down to the point where they start sculpting histories and cultures and such.

Which, as I mentioned, sounds to me like in your system, they're going DOWN in devine ranks as they do so. I like to think of it as gaining more -control- though. The ability to change only -thus- much, no more, no less. They're artisians.

How does that fit in?


Additionally, I think my phoenii would fit well into your worship system, because they're autoemotovores. They feed off emotion, but rather than feeding off the emotion of others, they feed off their own... so to stay healthy, they need to make friends, have a social life, that sort of thing. Which while not -quite- being worship, fits in close enough that I think I could probably borrow the rules and adapt. The dragons would fit PERFECTLY into the worship system already, as the dragons tend to be the opposite of the phoenii in every respect, so the dragons are just plain emotovores, and they DO feed off the emotions of others.