The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hi guys!

I suppose you could try to do both at once: "If this is your first smite this round, you deal double (triple, quad, etc.) damage."

That way the core rules of smiting aren't changed, but the character has a strong incentive to limit it to 1/round (since with, say, 3 Great Smitings the damage would be +120 for the first each round but only +30 for each other -- wasting 90 damage for each smite you do beyond the first in a round).

That would then cap Great Smiting to the number of attacks you could make per round, as well as confuse things a bit more.

A better solution may just be to make Great Smiting a Divine Ability rather than an Epic Feat. That seems to solve everything.

The problem I have is that not changing things allows you to have Great Smiting x40 by min maxing a 30th-level Demigod.

Now +1200 Smiting Damage is no small matter. It effectively means you are likely to kill a typical evil lesser deity IN ONE HIT with no save! Or indeed any Abomination.

 

[CRGreathouse]

That would then cap Great Smiting to the number of attacks you could make per round, as well as confuse things a bit more.

It wouldn't cap uses at all, but only 1/round could get the feat's benefits. Isn't that essentially the same as your change, except that this allows you to (possibly) 'waste' your smites all in a round for a bit more damage?

That is, if you're concerned with characters taking Great Smiting x 40, then limiting them to 1 smite/round makes their max smite damage 41 x their level (for 1 smite), instead of 205 x their level (for 5 smites). Using my variant they could get 41 x their level (for 1 smite) or 45 x their level (for 5 smites).

This assumes they somehow have GS 40 times, but even so I think mine's more sane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

HI CRGreathouse mate!

Okay, I think I picked you up wrong above, I see what you mean now...at least I think I do.

It wouldn't cap uses at all, but only 1/round could get the feat's benefits. Isn't that essentially the same as your change, except that this allows you to (possibly) 'waste' your smites all in a round for a bit more damage?

No. My change lets you use Smite any number of times per round (as the rulebooks suggest). So if you had five attacks (one from haste), then you could unleash five smites per round.

This seems to be in keeping with the core rulebooks.

The problem is when you introduce Great Smiting and let it stack, because its a double multiplier (level x great smiting bonus).

As a mere epic feat this is grossly overpowered. By my reckoning a feat increasing damage by about 1d8 vs. evil would be balanced (2d6 is acceptable since it doesn't stack with either itself or magic items). Of course the number of smiting attempts is itself limited so you could probably double that figure to 2d8 and it will still easily be balanced.

However, because Great Smiting multiplies with your level it gets out of hand too quickly.

Lets say we have a 30th-level character who has taken Great Smiting 4 times (so smite damage = Level x5 = +150, they can smite 7/day or better with feats).

Balanced Damage at this juncture would more likely be 10d8 (2d8 x5) = 45 damage on average.

Increase the example to 40th-level, with a character who has taken Great Smiting 6 times (Level x7 = +280, they can smite 10/day or more)

Balanced Damage at this juncture would be 14d8 = 63

So the difference at 30th is x3.3, the difference at 40th is x4.4, and these are totally conservative uses of Great Smiting!

Over the same distance, a Fighter would be lucky to add more than 10-20 points to damage.

So your 40th-level Paladin is going to be dealing about 250 damage more than your 40th-level Fighter versus evil aligned opponents (likely 50% of all antagonists). Thats WITHOUT min/maxing. Thats BEFORE throwing Divine Abilities into the mix.

That to me illustrates that Great Smiting, as a stackable epic feat, is broken.

That is, if you're concerned with characters taking Great Smiting x 40, then limiting them to 1 smite/round makes their max smite damage 41 x their level (for 1 smite), instead of 205 x their level (for 5 smites). Using my variant they could get 41 x their level (for 1 smite) or 45 x their level (for 5 smites).

This assumes they somehow have GS 40 times, but even so I think mine's more sane.

I would rather change the epic feat than the core rule. Added to which, limiting it to 1/round doesn't really solve anything. You could still min/max a 30-40th-level Paladin into killing any of the Lords of Evil (from the BoVD) in a single hit.

One possibility may be:

Great Smiting (Epic) = Level x2 (Balanced 4d8 = 18)
Superior Smiting (Divine) = Level x3 (Balanced 14d8 = 63)
Perfect Smiting (Cosmic) = Level x4 (Balanced 46d8 = 207)

None of which stack.

Of course that may seem harsh in light of the current use of Great Smiting, but it is much better balanced.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Great Smiting (Epic) = Level x2 (Balanced 4d8 = 18)
Superior Smiting (Divine) = Level x3 (Balanced 14d8 = 63)
Perfect Smiting (Cosmic) = Level x4 (Balanced 46d8 = 207)

None of which stack.

Of course that may seem harsh in light of the current use of Great Smiting, but it is much better balanced.

That makes Perfect Smiting exceptionally weak, and Superior Smiting somewhat weak.

Essentially, the three all do the same thing (add +level to damage), but the last is a cosmic ability!

Really, I'd think Great (Epic) = x2, Superior (Divine) = x4, Perfect (Cosmic) = x10 or something -- so each increases more than the last.

Alternatively, give Superior and Perfect other abilities (increase attack roll, make damage harder to resist, etc.) -- but do something so the Cosmic ability is better than the epic feat!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

That makes Perfect Smiting exceptionally weak, and Superior Smiting somewhat weak.

Weak compared to what though, only the current broken rules.

Essentially, the three all do the same thing (add +level to damage), but the last is a cosmic ability!

Cosmic Abilities are roughly equivalent to between 15-30 feats. That said, most of my cosmic abilities are things that cannot be gained through any number of feats because they are something completely different.

Really, I'd think Great (Epic) = x2, Superior (Divine) = x4, Perfect (Cosmic) = x10 or something -- so each increases more than the last.

I was considering x4 (Divine) and x8 (Cosmic). Rest assured it will definately not be more than this. I'll go over the math and see whats best though.

In fact I may not even have Perfect Smiting within my list of 64 cosmic abilities in the IH, simply because I have far more interesting abilities to proffer.

Alternatively, give Superior and Perfect other abilities (increase attack roll, make damage harder to resist, etc.) -- but do something so the Cosmic ability is better than the epic feat!

I don't like giving any abilities multiple facets. Simply because it dilutes the meaning of the ability itself.

eg. If you have Divine Monk comprised of 5 epic feats, then its really not a divine 'ability' as such but simply a package of multiple 'abilities' disguised as a divine ability.

I prefer to boil abilities down to their smallest components.

Though I do have a list of feat packages for the classes, but they are seperated from the actual divine abilities.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't like giving any abilities multiple facets. Simply because it dilutes the meaning of the ability itself.

I agree, but I still think giving multiple abilities would have been better than dealing x2/x3/x4 damage, which is too poweful at epiv/too weak at Cosmic.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CR mate!

I agree, but I still think giving multiple abilities would have been better than dealing x2/x3/x4 damage, which is too poweful at epiv/too weak at Cosmic.

I've went over the math and x2/x3/x4 is still the best solution. However, its almost certain that I won't have a Perfect Smiting Cosmic Ability in the IH.

 

[historian]

Howdy Krust!


I had a few questions for you as we move closer to the date:

I think you mentioned previously that IG Thanos rates out at about CR 4000. Would he be representative of the sun-total of power in a universe? Would he be able to destroy a Universe/Plane/Dimenson? How much damage could he expect to do in a single attack? Would he be beyond alignment (or at least eligible for that sort of thing)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Krust!

Hi historian mate!

I had a few questions for you as we move closer to the date:

Fire away!

I think you mentioned previously that IG Thanos rates out at about CR 4000.

I'll know exactly when everything finished.

I have been considering scrapping the Metempiric Powers altogether, and just adding more Cosmic Powers. I mean the Metempiric Powers likely are just there for show, whereas the cosmic powers (which can be taken by Immortals) are of actual use. Also I have more than a dozen surplus cosmic powers and I am skeptical about some of the Metempiric Powers.

Any thoughts on this?

I mean I know people might have been interested in reading them, but from a practical perspective I think having more cosmic powers makes more sense.

Would he be representative of the sun-total of power in a universe?

Not necessarily, though he may be the most powerful individual in that universe.

Would he be able to destroy a Universe/Plane/Dimenson?

Depends on how much he invests in the assault and what abilities he has.

It also depends on what damage system you use (Comic Book* or Realistic)

*Like d20 Modern.

Extrapolating d20 Modern; 128d6 is a low yield nuke.

It can be a rude awakening to shift deities from one reality to another.

How much damage could he expect to do in a single attack?

Variable. As above this depends on how much he invests in the assault and what abilities he has.

Ultimately anything is possible.

Would he be beyond alignment (or at least eligible for that sort of thing)?

Maybe not immediately (he would still retain his individuality), but certainly in the long term yes.

Thanks in advance.

Anytime mate.

 

[historian]

Howdy Krust!

I have been considering scrapping the Metempiric Powers altogether, and just adding more Cosmic Powers. I mean the Metempiric Powers likely are just there for show, whereas the cosmic powers (which can be taken by Immortals) are of actual use. Also I have more than a dozen surplus cosmic powers and I am skeptical about some of the Metempiric Powers.

Any thoughts on this?

My impression (and I'm only familiar with one, perhaps two, of your metempiric powers) is that I'd like you to leave em' in there.

I think part of your appeal as a game designer/developer (although certainly only one) is that you are willing to go out on a limb and attempt to 'define' uber-powerful beings via RPG mechanics. Now I certainly think that you would be going where no one in d20 has gone if you stopped at Galactus-level beings, you might feel like you've left "money on the table" so to speak. If your cosmology handles beings and abilities above this level of power, then by all means go for it.

Of course, I realize that some of this stuf is unlikely to have much practical value in a 'linear' campaign (i.e. there is almost no forseeable way to move your 1st level character to 10,000th level) I view the upper end stuff being used as backdrop and in 'one-shot' gaming sessions that could be a great deal of fun.

And, on another note, I couldn't speak to whether 8 metempiric abilities is enough, too many, etc. Intuitively, I like the idea of having more rather than less, but they should all 'fit'.

I mean I know people might have been interested in reading them, but from a practical perspective I think having more cosmic powers makes more sense.

I agree 100% that people will get more use out of the cosmic than the metempiric abilities. Would it be possible to add to the roster of cosmic abilities w/o reducing the number of metempiric abilities (or re-vamping the entire system)?

Extrapolating d20 Modern; 128d6 is a low yield nuke.

Interesting, by low yield are we speaking in terms of kilotons rather than megatons?

Thanks!