D&D 4E The Intelligent Fighter , Thibault's Circle / La Destreza.

[Tony Vargas]

This particular is an at-will idea because of its competitors and I agree but it seems like marking is a lot less corner case

The controller should probably just up and affect more than two targets somehow.

 

[Garthanos]

The controller should probably just up and affect more than two targets somehow.

I have pulled in a martial version of Swordburst for that so yeah no controller variant of 2 enemy management needed.

 

[Garthanos]

For the Fighter with Intelligence I think what is needed is an alternative to the Brawler style...


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Emere, level 7
Genasi, Fighter
Build: Brawling Fighter
Fighter: Combat Acuity
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Elemental Manifestation: Stormsoul
Background: Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 11, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 15.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15.




AC: 24 Fort: 24 Reflex: 19 Will: 19
HP: 62 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 15


TRAINED SKILLS
History +11, Athletics +12, Diplomacy +10, Heal +7, Endurance +10


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +6, Bluff +5, Engineering +6, Insight +2, Intimidate +8, Nature +4, Perception +2, Religion +6, Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +4


FEATS
Level 1: Nimble Defender
Level 2: Predictive Superiority
Level 4: Disciple of Trickery
Level 6: Iron Will


POWERS
Dark Sun: Body Equilibrium
Fighter at-will 1: Circle Bind
Fighter at-will 1: Surgical Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Dance of Overlapping Circles
Fighter daily 1: Seize and Stab
Fighter utility 2: Scrambling Climb
Fighter encounter 3: Parry and Riposte
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Line Breaker
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It


ITEMS
Amulet of Protection +2, Adventurer's Kit, Luring Withdrawal Leather Armor +2, Rebounding Dagger +2, Rhythm Blade Rapier +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

 

[Garthanos]

This ought to work for using one against the other as a fighter.



I almost want it to enable both enemies hitting one another for the Warlord
and all adjacent enemies for the Controller build... Though a rogue controller too rather like the scenes in Zorro where he is mobbed but he crawls out and they are pummeling each other and lost track of him for a few seconds (a controller variant of the gloaming cut)

 

[Garthanos]

So far I could probably play a couple different variants of this throughout Heroic tier ... as i said need one new style where the free offhand is assumed a tool of balance ( and maybe mobility? ).

Balance ... hmmm being able to reverse the state of prone by a minor action instead of a move and/or losing your ability to respond to an opportunity attack?

 

[Garthanos]

The impact of this stuff on multi-classing is interesting the fighter becomes a much more viable multi-class with intelligence based classes of course as well as the already quite doable warlord... swordmage and even wizard and others.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Balance ... hmmm being able to reverse the state of prone by a minor action instead of a move...?

A low-Heroic-level magic item lets you do that.


It's one of those weird little blindspots that has nettled at WotC era D&D going on 20 years now. Little things that are almost mundane, but the system makes impossible, pointless, or possible only with magic. Rolling quickly to your feat, impossible without Acrobat Boots. It's something a kid who's taken a few Aikido classes can do. Other games have 'instant stand' - not D&D (though PF, maybe?)

Using a spear for its reach advantage, and a shield - the basis of the phalanx, and a mainstay of military doctrine for thousands of years - strangely impossible. But, a kusari-gama or whip with a shield for a reach advantage, or a magical animated shield & two-handed spear, or even just get up on a horse, and it's no problem. Alexander the Great would not have been amused.

Fencing with a rapier, side-on stance, and the other hand used only for balance. Or any style using a one-handed weapon, alone. Very effective IRL, the former, at least in the realm of fencing & dueling, strictly inferior to pointless in D&D.

Shields: +1 or 2 AC, vs up to +8 for armor, yet re-enactors find that most attacks are stopped by the shield.

Parrying/Defense: Skilled opponents are harder to touche in fencing, or hit in medieval re-enactment, yet proficiency plays no part in AC. It's all abstracted into hp. (to be fair, 4e did scale defense with level, and 3e had Combat Expertise, so that's more a 5e blindspot).

...and, I could go on, but let's close with INT, to bring it back on topic: In RuneQuest, for instance, high INT added to your attack & defense %, as did several other stats, even the supernatural/spiritual POW. D&D goes all-in, one stat for attack, usually either STR or DEX. (Again, 4e's an outlier.)

 

[Garthanos]

A low-Heroic-level magic item lets you do that.

Right I was considering replacing some of the grapple widgets described in the Brawler Style with that function.

In other words like Brawler but not Brawler. That offhand is for balance

.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I really think that a 5e Intelligent Fighter should be able to make Investigation checks as a bonus action to add Int to Damage against a target, or to AC against their attacks, gain bonus proficiency in Investigation and 1 knowledge skill of your choice, add Int to Initiative, at level 3.

From there, it's about finding other ways to simply fight more intelligently than anyone else.

Edit: If you want to model the Spanish Circle, I'd suggest looking at the Polearm Master feat's benefit where you make a reaction attack when a creature comes into your reach, and consider an ability to attack with an extra 5ft while wielding a spear, rapier, shortsword, javelin, or other one handed piercing weapon. You could limit this manuever to a number of times per Int Mod, or go with the Int bonuses I listed above, and spread some of it out across the other archetype levels.

Another fun thing about the circle is the calm under pressure, so perhaps add Int to saves against fear?

What about giving the subclass Unarmored Defense Intelligence, and add a Mystic Circle Fighting Style that gives an AC bonus when using a dagger in one hand and another weapon in the other?

(side note: maybe there needs to be a gish fighting style, where you can make your weapon deal elemental damage or something, and a damage bonus when you make a weapon attack that is effected by a spell?

 

[Garthanos]

I really think that a 5e Intelligent Fighter should be able to make Investigation checks as a bonus action to add Int to Damage against a target, or to AC against their attacks, gain bonus proficiency in Investigation and 1 knowledge skill of your choice, add Int to Initiative, at level 3.

The savant is closer than one my think but it definitely isnt the tough survivor flavored character.

From there, it's about finding other ways to simply fight more intelligently than anyone else.

More intelligently than the other player fighting intelligently ...can role-play ones darnedest and do things you feel are intelligent but honestly.
My character is not me these ideas are about proposing the game enable my characters intelligence provide benefit on the battle field.

Edit: If you want to model the Spanish Circle, I'd suggest looking at the Polearm Master feat's benefit where you make a reaction attack when a creature comes into your reach, and consider an ability to attack with an extra 5ft while wielding a spear, rapier, shortsword, javelin, or other one handed piercing weapon. You could limit this manuever to a number of times per Int Mod, or go with the Int bonuses I listed above, and spread some of it out across the other archetype levels.

Another fun thing about the circle is the calm under pressure, so perhaps add Int to saves against fear?

What about giving the subclass Unarmored Defense Intelligence, and add a Mystic Circle Fighting Style that gives an AC bonus when using a dagger in one hand and another weapon in the other?

(side note: maybe there needs to be a gish fighting style, where you can make your weapon deal elemental damage or something, and a damage bonus when you make a weapon attack that is effected by a spell?

There you go... good ideas that pole arm one is interesting but we need to make it distinct from the Battlemaster

Lunging Attack

When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to increase your reach for that attack by 5 feet. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.

I kind of feel like style seemed to be less about lunging but getting the benefit without the real life risk

In 4e terms that is like being able to do maneuvers that normally grant combat advantage but you have a work around. Like a feat that means if your own power causes you to grant combat advantage you get a bonus to AC equal to your intelligence