D&D 4E The Intelligent Fighter , Thibault's Circle / La Destreza.

[Tony Vargas]

Martial classes do not have a swordburst like power though grumble grumble controllers
---> why not? Arcane defender has one.

Seems like all arcane classes were at least a wee bit controller, maybe because the archetypal arcanist is the wizard?

 

[Garthanos]

Seems like all arcane classes were at least a wee bit controller, maybe because the archetypal arcanist is the wizard?

The fighter could lawn mow minions in 1e land if the DM used them sub 1HD guys. From tradition stand point not sure it has ground to stand on.

 

[Garthanos]

It could be a wild flurry which hits all creatures (no targeting just enemies this is for flavor).
For a fighter you would have to restrict marking.

Yes not appropriate flavor for use with the Fencing Masters Riposte

Also not great flavor for the Warlord Controller (they need to be ally friendly even in Controller build)

 

[Tony Vargas]

It could be a wild flurry which hits all creatures (no targeting just enemies this is for flavor).

Have you ever noticed that most martial AEs, and, IIRC have additional language beyond just targeting enemies, specifying "that you can see."

One corner-case controller function is recon by fireball - there's no concealment penalty when you target an area, but that advantage is clipped from those powers. No other mechanical effect I can see.

I'd thought about adding a 'wild swing' feat that optionally removed that & made any martial close attack target all creatures, instead.

 

[Garthanos]

Have you ever noticed that most martial AEs, and, IIRC have additional language beyond just targeting enemies, specifying "that you can see."

One corner-case controller function is recon by fireball - there's no concealment penalty when you target an area, but that advantage is clipped from those powers. No other mechanical effect I can see.

I'd thought about adding a 'wild swing' feat that optionally removed that & made any martial close attack target all creatures, instead.

Cool yes those go together. I think we could call it "Blind Rage" and have it also affect close primal attacks too.

The hunters rapid shot .... is a martial at-will area effect of course. That the flurry multi-attack affecting all creatures isnt in the Berserker excepting in a Daily and more powerful form and also only enemies you can see, seems a failure to use the flavor of Berserking.

Having weapon attacks not default to weapon reach when ranged ones do seems strange perhaps that could be a function for your subclass or feat tax for the reach weapon user.

Defenders being close range controllers at some level I think is another reason why it is in the Swordmage.

 

[Garthanos]

Even the barbarian with it primal spirits. doesn't get our wild ( or otherwise ) swing "swordburst like" functionality in the at-will category ... seems kind of sad

It seems like proper flavor was being ignored or went unnoticed in favor of niche protection for a niche that is all over the place anyway.

Definitely branched into a new thread with this.

 

[Garthanos]

OK this has fighter flavor and analogous in potency to the Swordmages swordburst, limits but makes the individual attacks weapon attacks it sort of has an eyes in the back of your head angle going on I opened which secondary attribute could be used for the damage bonus. Dex, Int or Wisdom. So it should work out very like the sword mage ability.

One subtlety if you manage to multi-mark enemies you can maintain the mark using this but on its own will not create a new mark.



I disagree that only controllers should get this kind of fun. When a striker and a defender already had something similar.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The hunters rapid shot .... is a martial at-will area effect of course.

It's really not. It's a multi-attack limited to an area, it has none of the other advantages of an AE. Not vs swarms or targets with concealment, for instance. It's really pretty awful, presumably to 'balance' the high damage die of bows relative to the lower damage dice of at-will AE spells like Scorching Burst.

Having weapon attacks not default to weapon reach when ranged ones do seems strange perhaps that could be a function for your subclass or feat tax for the reach weapon user.

Again, that seems part of protecting the controller role.

Defenders being close range controllers at some level I think is another reason why it is in the Swordmage.

Or swordmage being arcane.

 

[Garthanos]

It's really not. It's a multi-attack limited to an area, it has none of the other advantages of an AE. Not vs swarms or targets with concealment, for instance. It's really pretty awful, presumably to 'balance' the high damage die of bows relative to the lower damage dice of at-will AE spells like Scorching Burst.

Ah I can see the damage limit up to a point... but wouldnt that be covered by something as simple as damage -2

 

[Garthanos]

Again, that seems part of protecting the controller role.

I think zones and similar have better controller zing ... hence adding it to the Fireball in the other thread.

There seems limited scope for martial to emulate that like caltrops without advanced setting up traps and the like.