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4E The Intelligent Fighter , Thibault's Circle.

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e is a million miles from doing anything like this... 4e tends to shunt smart fighter to being a Warlord or maybe a reflavored Swordmage (which is very much still an option) but i think there is a case for making it functional for a Intelligent Fighter/Defender.

In 4e out of the box you can build a Str / Wizdom / Int Fighter ... the int is important for keeping light ac/reflex defenses up but really wouldn't accomplish much else. Can we encourage it more can we make fast thinking and quick battlefield analysis the initiative instead of perception that the wary fighter does? and while that would be an enabler not sure it relates to the style.

Thibault's 'magic circle was a very effective style in terms of Defense

"What made the Spanish Style of fencing so respected if not feared by contemporaries of that period, was it the attitude, the demeanor of the Spaniard, the precision of the attacks and parries, or was there something more?Consider that in a time frame where thousands died yearly from duels (in many cases, both parties of the duel), many Spanish trained fighters walked away without grievous or life-threatening injuries. "

In that regards I am thinking a Fighter of this style could be gaining the benefit similar to the Barbarian light armored defenders ability (which I have proposed as a reasonable class feature where you trade in heavy armor proficiency) . While this would boost the function of the light armored defender it doesn't bolster the value of Intelligence.


* http://sjaqua.tripod.com/spanishc.htm

One Character that leaps to mind for the Spanish Circle is Zorro.

Any ideas?

Perhaps this is actually a rogue fighting style but the emphasis of winning unharmed kind of doesn't feel like it.
 
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gyor

Adventurer
The best reason to be an intelligent Fighter is Eldrich Knight and Ritual Caster Feat (IMO it's an almost always take feat to me).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The best reason to be an intelligent Fighter is Eldrich Knight and Ritual Caster Feat (IMO it's an almost always take feat to me).
Swordmages did THAT better ;)

Their magic is part of their swordplay integrated with their magic not something pasted on where your magic is just like everyone else's and a selection of spells not even unique to your class. My swordmage dances through complex martial steps and weapon slices then throws his blade and it shatters in in a flurry of shards cutting the enemy to ribbons then coalescing in his hand and that "his magic" not some hand waving mumblers "spells".

And intelligence directed their blade itself ...

But regardless this is using brains in the martial arena not spell casting.
 
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Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Thibaults Circle was almost mystical, though - much like many, ironically more familiar, eastern martial arts, I suppose.

In 4e, it'd've been a simple matter of feats and/or a feature to switch the WIS bonus to OAs and the DEX references of many powers over to INT.

In 5e you'd design a new subclass, of course.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Thibaults Circle was almost mystical, though - much like many, ironically more familiar, eastern martial arts, I suppose.
And you know my opinion of making the Monk a psionic class too...
for anyone else I think making "the martial artist" class not martial was idiotic and undermined the premise of martial pushing the boundaries heck I think the entire idea of it being a source has monk written on it.
In 4e, it'd've been a simple matter of feats and/or a feature to switch the WIS bonus to OAs and the DEX references of many powers over to INT.
Sure trying to come up with details I hadnt thought of swapping out Dex but yes it does make sense for the circles pattern based precision
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In 4e, it'd've been a simple matter of feats and/or a feature to switch the WIS bonus to OAs and the DEX references of many powers over to INT.
Perhaps have Combat Accuity instead of Combat Agility? but looking at Dex powers they do not seem too prevalent do you have a nice high dex fighter build this converts? (Rangers yes)

The tempest fighter being two weaponed may be somewhat problematic (though I guess the maine gauche and rapier fits)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I always thought the "smart fighters" were Rogues. :cool:
I never did as the useless thief of AD&D was my introduction to that archetype.
Rogues are now fully fight worthy and so I can shift based on that... AND It is possible to do a smart rogue in 4e and it generally comes off as ninja like (shadowy rogue) I would say that is stylistic rather different than a fencing master with unusually high survivability ;) and a measure of cold calculating dangerousness so to my thinking doesn't do the trick for this Thibault's Circle smart fighter style.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Perhaps have Combat Accuity instead of Combat Agility? but looking at Dex powers they do not seem too prevalent do you have a nice high dex fighter build this converts?
The tempest fighter being two weaponed may be somewhat problematic (though I guess the maine gauche and rapier fits)
I was thinking converting DEX-secondary Powers and DEX-preq Feats to INT.

The single-one-handed-weapon archetype so common in fencing (&other martial arts) never got a great treatment in D&D, which is maybe too medieval and gear-focused for that.


I never did as the useless thief of AD&D was my introduction to that archetype.
Rogues are now fully fight worthy and so I can shift based on that... AND It is possible to do a smart rogue in 4e and it generally comes off as ninja like (shadowy rogue)
In 3e the rogue had some definite use for INT - but so did the Fighter who wanted the Expertise feat tree.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I was thinking converting DEX-secondary Powers and DEX-preq Feats to INT.
Yeh but I am thinking those are mostly geared for tempest builds two weapon requirements .... or maybe brawler? and have grapples around them? (well that is one handed of a sorts)

The single-one-handed-weapon archetype so common in fencing (&other martial arts) never got a great treatment in D&D, which is maybe too medieval and gear-focused for that.
Yes I was thinking the one handed emphasis ... could be a good addition but I am thinking we may need new powers not just adopting the dex ones.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Although the using intellect in place of Wisdom for powers seems like it might work mechanically in a broad sort of way... without as much baggage as Dex.

Conceptually its a bit like predictive mental precision replacing perception
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
OK a couple of thoughts one was expanding Combat Agility to allow you to shift to exploit opportunity attacks options if they are in Dex Mod range not just if they are adjacent. And the other is a preemptive knock down if they do it while adjacent... the latter is weird I made it based on Int so the prediction and quick thinking get in the picture but perhaps it needs to be the damage mod instead of attack. Any way her is how they come out in Character Builder

combataccuity.png


combatagility.png
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
An idea first considered with a 5e context

Battle Ready (new class feature - in 4e delete Wary Fighter - add Instinctive Fighter for CON initiative)
Many combatants are forced to react to a situation for the Fighter it really is just part of the plan and often at the forefront of their thoughts a fighter may use any mental stat for initiative Intelligence / Wisdom / Charisma instead of Dexterity.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Almost thinking for a good defender it needs something for its armor perhaps gaining this as an armor option w

... nimbledefender.png
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
One of the artificer subclass is a bit like the hexblade, but with Int...

(edit, I should mention that's in 5e)
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
To wrap back to the original post, I *am* roleplaying a fighter who uses the Spanish style... and it's a dex-based melee fighter that uses a rapier and buckler and the battle-master subclass. It works very well with riposte and parry as his main maneuvres. He also took trip attack, and precise attack will be his next maneuvre.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
I was thinking the one handed emphasis ... could be a good addition but I am thinking we may need new powers not just adopting the dex ones.
Well the 4e fighter, specifically was originally designed around S&B vs two-hander. TWF was added later (with a defender spin, vs the Ranger's TWF, and the Ranger also covered archery, while the rogue covered the lighter DEX-based styles... and got a Duelist build in Dragon, IIRC).

So feature would seem to be the place to insert a one-handed-weapon emphasis, an alternative to S&B, Greatweapon, Tempest, etc... it could swap in INT, and incentivize the single one-handed weapon.

AND It is possible to do a smart rogue in 4e and it generally comes off as ninja like (shadowy rogue) I would say that is stylistic rather different than a fencing master with unusually high survivability ;) and a measure of cold calculating dangerousness so to my thinking doesn't do the trick for this Thibault's Circle smart fighter style.
What's the use of INT To the rogue in that case? No skill ranks or Combat Expertise preq like in 3e, redundant w/DEX-primary for AC/REF. In any case, the Rogue or Fighter question really boils down to Striker or Defender.

If it's just DPR, 4e rogue (except no use for INT), Essentials Slayer or Thief (w/Melee Training: INT and good DEX, though it'd be sub-optimal compared to going all-in on DEX), or 5e fighter (Dueling style, ignoring the shield/twf synergy and lack of anything to do with INT) could all serve. If it's more about maneuvers & tactics, a 3e fighter centered around Combat Expertise could capture some of it, but would still need a lot of DEX for the Finesse, an Essentials Knight (again, w/sub-optimal melee training:INT), or 5e BM (unfortunately Sentinel brings the shield back into it, & no use for INT), could all be RaW alternatives. Adding a Fighter build to cover the concept could be kept as simple as alternative Feature or two.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
What's the use of INT To the rogue in that case? No skill ranks or Combat Expertise preq like in 3e, redundant w/DEX-primary for AC/REF. In any case, the Rogue or Fighter question really boils down to Striker or Defender.
The Shadowy Rogue build gets a fair share of powers with Int riders and feats too.

I made this one a big fan of Corellion with some feat selections and took Swashbuckler and some others to emphasize fencing instead of assassin options. A background that gave him history skill.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Adiah, level 12
Deva, Rogue, Rakish Swashbuckler
Build: Shadowy Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Cunning Sneak
Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
Background: Seeker for the Lost Clan (Seeker for the Lost Clan Benefit)


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 13.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12.




AC: 26 Fort: 21 Reflex: 27 Will: 20
HP: 78 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 19


TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +16, Thievery +16, History +18, Acrobatics +16, Perception +11, Athletics +13


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +12, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +8, Heal +8, Insight +8, Intimidate +9, Nature +8, Religion +14, Streetwise +9


FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 2: Disciple of Trickery
Level 4: Distant Advantage
Level 6: Corellon's Wrath Style
Level 8: Flash of the Blade
Level 10: Jack of All Trades
Level 11: Fleet-Footed
Level 12: Armor Finesse


POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue at-will 1: Gloaming Cut
Rogue encounter 1: Guarded Attack
Rogue daily 1: Duelist's Prowess
Rogue utility 2: Deadly Knowledge
Rogue encounter 3: Shadow Steel Roll
Rogue daily 5: Lurker's Assault
Rogue utility 6: Graceful Maneuver
Rogue encounter 7: Shadow Boxer
Rogue daily 9: Vexing Sting
Rogue utility 10: Familiar Footing


ITEMS
Haunted Drowmesh +3, Amulet of Protection +3, Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Blade of Night Rapier +3, Dagger of Accuracy +2 (Thrown)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
 
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