I'm a manipulative propaganda master, specifically a bard/virtuoso.
The Invasion of Mori OOC [3.5][planar][PAUSED]
- Thread starter moritheil
- Start date
moritheil
First Post
BW - The party already has a Ministry of Propaganda and a Department of Nocturnal Eliminations. 
The roles of quartermaster and undead creation likewise seem to be filled.
Shayuri - I am entirely willing to allow racial HD advancement to increase racial abilities (including caster level of SLAs and SR.) However, the assertion that class HD advancement also increases these racial properties, absent some text indicating that this is the case (as with azers), seems shaky at best.
The roles of quartermaster and undead creation likewise seem to be filled.Shayuri - I am entirely willing to allow racial HD advancement to increase racial abilities (including caster level of SLAs and SR.) However, the assertion that class HD advancement also increases these racial properties, absent some text indicating that this is the case (as with azers), seems shaky at best.
NapoleonicSoup
First Post
Sweet! Because not only wold that mean I get to participate, but it does not seem like we have the third part of the holy triangle (Healing btw).
Fair nuff. I was taking my cue from things like Illithid and Celestial and Fiendish critters, who get to add class level HD to their racial HD to work out SR. But then you have weird ones like the Ogre Mage who's SR is frozen at 19 too, so it can clearly work either way.
Anyway, I take we'll be consolidating our party's composition before we head through the gate, yar?
Anyway, I take we'll be consolidating our party's composition before we head through the gate, yar?
Question
First Post
moritheil said:BW - The party already has a Ministry of Propaganda and a Department of Nocturnal Eliminations.
Shayuri - I am entirely willing to allow racial HD advancement to increase racial abilities (including caster level of SLAs and SR.) However, the assertion that class HD advancement also increases these racial properties, absent some text indicating that this is the case (as with azers), seems shaky at best.
Why? The default is that it advances based on HD. HD does not specify between racial hit dice or class hit dice unless it specifically says so. Half-celestial template is an example. It simply says you gain extra SLA based on HD. Unless you are referring to something that specifically doesnt increase based on HD?
Btw what are the rest of us in the room supposed to do now?
moritheil
First Post
The party should get in its last comments before heading out, work out some sort of agenda (which can later be adapted), and present a march order. It was originally planned that SG's babau would join the party before everyone headed out, but if everyone is raring to go, it can catch up later. LR is not playing, so his character will simply be off-screen for the foreseeable future.
Question -
With regard to Half-Celestial, it is a template, not a monster race. By no means can you use template rules to glean a general "default rule" for races. Furthermore, it explicitly states advancement based on all HD - that isn't a general rule; it's an exception! (See below for why it's an exception.)
The default for a monster race is that a racial feature advances based on racial HD - or sometimes not at all (for example, does a Quasit's commune ability ever get better? Not really, since it's capped at six questions.) Furthermore, "by HD" advancement comments generally assume advancement by racial HD, not by class level. Do not confuse this with the fact that general statements based on HD (such as the effect of color spray) are based on all HD.
It seems that the Ogre Mage is a representative example of how things work. It technically isn't allowed to advance racial HD, which is why its SR is frozen. Outsiders, on the other hand, are generally expected to increase outsider HD; as stated before, that would result in an increase in SR. Players are welcome to advance characters by racial HD if an increase in SLA CL or SR (or size, where appropriate) is deemed important.
Celestial and Fiendish are templates that explicitly state increases in SR based on all HD. As for illithids, it is possible that an error was made, or that some miscommunication occurred between members of the design team - it is not unknown for writers to make errors when advancing monsters.
Please, please do not interpret the SR advancement of races intended to be played by players (drow, svirfneblin, etc.) as indicating some sort of universal precedent that applies to monstrous races that normally advance by racial HD rather than class level. Races whose SR increases with class levels tend to have explicit statements that their SR increases with class levels.
Question -
With regard to Half-Celestial, it is a template, not a monster race. By no means can you use template rules to glean a general "default rule" for races. Furthermore, it explicitly states advancement based on all HD - that isn't a general rule; it's an exception! (See below for why it's an exception.)
The default for a monster race is that a racial feature advances based on racial HD - or sometimes not at all (for example, does a Quasit's commune ability ever get better? Not really, since it's capped at six questions.) Furthermore, "by HD" advancement comments generally assume advancement by racial HD, not by class level. Do not confuse this with the fact that general statements based on HD (such as the effect of color spray) are based on all HD.
Shayuri said:
It seems that the Ogre Mage is a representative example of how things work. It technically isn't allowed to advance racial HD, which is why its SR is frozen. Outsiders, on the other hand, are generally expected to increase outsider HD; as stated before, that would result in an increase in SR. Players are welcome to advance characters by racial HD if an increase in SLA CL or SR (or size, where appropriate) is deemed important.
Celestial and Fiendish are templates that explicitly state increases in SR based on all HD. As for illithids, it is possible that an error was made, or that some miscommunication occurred between members of the design team - it is not unknown for writers to make errors when advancing monsters.
Please, please do not interpret the SR advancement of races intended to be played by players (drow, svirfneblin, etc.) as indicating some sort of universal precedent that applies to monstrous races that normally advance by racial HD rather than class level. Races whose SR increases with class levels tend to have explicit statements that their SR increases with class levels.
Last edited:
moritheil
First Post
If the above isn't crystal-clear to anyone (and we do want to get this clear before moving on), try looking at the tables for dragons by age. Those tables should make it very clear that dragons gain racial HD with age, and only those racial HD determine things like SR and size. It's entirely possible to have, say, a wyrmling dragon sorc 14 with 20 total HD, but that dragon would not gain size, natural attacks, SR and increased breath attacks as though it had 20 racial HD. Instead, it would be handled as a wyrmling of its racial HD, and its class levels would give it different abilities entirely (in this case, the ability to cast spells and summon a familiar as a 14 Sorc.) The dragon advancement table is quite obviously constructed with the assumption that racial HD increases are being considered.
In a similar fashion, most comments on monsters that normally increase HD by racial HD (including outsiders) are made with the assumption that racial HD increases are being considered. Of course, player characters are an exception to this assumption of racial HD progression, as they are unusual.
Finally, consider this: if every class level counted as a racial hit die, there would not be a rule stating that class levels add only 1/2 to CR if they do not boost a monster's primary strengths!
That rule exists to recognize the tradeoff that a monster race makes when advancing by class levels rather than by racial HD.
In a similar fashion, most comments on monsters that normally increase HD by racial HD (including outsiders) are made with the assumption that racial HD increases are being considered. Of course, player characters are an exception to this assumption of racial HD progression, as they are unusual.
Finally, consider this: if every class level counted as a racial hit die, there would not be a rule stating that class levels add only 1/2 to CR if they do not boost a monster's primary strengths!
That rule exists to recognize the tradeoff that a monster race makes when advancing by class levels rather than by racial HD.
