The issue with wizards and sorcerers

[green slime]

[MENTION=96012]Alexanderone[/MENTION]:

In combat, a fully rested mid to high level spellcaster will, or at least should, dominate over an fighter in almost all situations. Trying to demonstrate otherwise is an exercise in futility.

And this statement is true even for noncombat scenarios. But the spellcaster will eventually run out of oomph. Especially if he seeks to showcase in each scenario.

 

[Piscivorous]

First post - been playing since the little white box. Got 2E but didn't play it. Got back in when 3E when I realized my B&N employee discount meant really cheap 3E and 3.5 books. Dabbled in 4E, but I hate it. Anywho.....

Certainly spellcasters become more powerful. But they'd all be middle aged before they got 2nd level spells without melee characters and rogues to keep them from dying before they can get powerful.

The problem arises when their power relegates fighters [as someone said earlier] to 5th tier status at the higher levels. Making any of the core classes obsolete, at any level, is a huge flaw in DMing. Players will start shying away from other classes in favor of spellcasters if they go relatively unchecked. Certainly a few will play a fighter for a few levels and then switch to spellcasters. On the same token, being overly aggressive versus casters early can have the opposite effect, where no one wants to play a caster.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't think that 3.x really made it worse.

The Wizard's Spell Compendium (from 2nd ed) had 5 softcover volumes of spells compared to the 3.5 Spell Compendium (which covers all castersO.

Sure, but there were limiting factors. In AD&D, you got less spells when you leveled up. If you found spells, you had to make a check to be able to learn them. You could know a maximum number of spells at each level. NPC spellcasters were assumed, by default, to be hostile to sharing spells; even trusted mentors would probably demand lopsided exchanges.

All in all, it was much harder to do A + B + C, because you might only be able to come up with A and C.

Also in 3.x crafting magic items takes spending xp (nt so in 2nd ed) - and this has always been a bone of contention with players.

Also in 2nd ed wizards got xp awards for crafting magic items - so it encouraged work in the background and non adventuring for wizards.

But in 2e, items required special materials, often quest items, and in some versions, might require permanent investments of Constitution.

Now 3e did help in some respects. Fighters, in addition to have no class features to speak of, just specializations and double specializations and such if you went that route, had the worst saving throws of any class. In every category. The 3e equivalent would be three weak saves. Rogues had to be mid-level to have a good chance of pulling off their best stunts without getting killed. And so forth. Only spellcasters could look forward to a strong start (hey, Sleep is a good spell) and continuous opportunity for advancement, for the most part. Fighters and rogues pretty much started looking at retirement as soon as they hit name level, becoming landholders and leaders.

 

[Starbuck_II]

But in 2e, items required special materials, often quest items, and in some versions, might require permanent investments of Constitution.
.

Nope, that was 1st edition.

2nd edition (assuming no houserules): may needed the spell enchant item (ande possibly Permanency*). You could create a few without them, but only potions/ scrolls.
There was a 5% chance to lose 1 Con if using Permanency spell (see note below*).
Now, there was a recommendation that you include monster parts, but it wasn't a rule just a suggestion (Variant rule).
You probably thought it was a rule in your mind so you misspoke.

potions and scrolls were fairly easy to make, you just had to be about 6th lv for potions, and I think you could make scrolls at 1st lv.

For anything else you need enchant an item which took 1 week to cast per item you are making and you had to be 12th lv.
*If it is a permenant non-charged item (i.e a +1 magic sword) then you also need to cast permenancy which permenantly drains 1 con point from you (5% chance).

But you gain EXP for creating these magic items. So it was a very smart thing.
Your creating them makes you a higher level than your allies.
Granted Treasure meant EXP in AD&D so it has a form of logic.

So to sum up:
Easy to make Charged items:
scrolls, wands, staffs.

But hard to make non-charged items.

 

[Dandu]

No, not a good idea, an two accounts: 1)because this "real" DM would be too tempted to have your sorcerer squashed by a falling piano-shaped planetoid.

Even after I said I'd be choosing the non-broken spells in place of Planar Binding, Polymorph, and etc?

But perhaps a real player can handle that...even if his real character cannot.

Is this more of your innocent humor that I have a tendency to mistake for unpleasant insinuation?

2) if you think that answering this thread is time and energy consuming, wait 'til you participate in a real PvP play-by-email/messageboard game....

I have played PbP before. It's can get very interesting.

(PHB sorcerers at 12th level, only cast 3 6th, 5 5th, and 6 1st-4th level spells, plus Charisma... So unless you have a Charisma of 32, how are you getting 2 bonus spells per spell level / day?)

1. I was factoring bonus spells from a high Cha score.

2. I think I was looking at the wrong line for spells/day.

 

[green slime]

Even after I said I'd be choosing the non-broken spells in place of Planar Binding, Polymorph, and etc?

Sorry for teh funny; its my ultimate threat when one of the players IMC starts power gaming. He is notorious, in our community. I'm not against the occasional polymorph, planar binding or anything else within reason, because I don't play RAW.

Is this more of your innocent humor that I have a tendency to mistake for unpleasant insinuation?

You started the "unpleasant insinuation" by refering to a "real DM". I just continued that line of thought . I find it funny to extend things like that. I was hoping you would see the reference to your own statement, and realise that some people may interpret it as sarcasm... Yes, I have a strange sense of humour, but its better live, I assure you. At least, I hope it is....

I have played PbP before. It's can get very interesting.

Me too. And in muliple PvPvPvP scenarios, it gets messy. It also gets tedious, awaiting for responses, and gets ugly when accusations of non-partiality start flying around. Which they inevitably do, because it somebody's treasured character that got shafted by dice/fate/bad luck/poor planning/poor choices, and it's not often that players are willing to admit that. I'd just as soon not put myself through that (again). But yes, with the right crew, it is a lot of fun. I'll admit to being mildly tempted, but I realise I have nowhere near the amount of time needed to put a decent effort together. I need to get my ordinary campaign up and running again (the server with the houe rules was killed by the owner, so I need to rewrite from memory), have a test spec for work to complete, servers to patch together, managers to convince to give me more money, a trip tpo Brazil to prep for, and a MtG EDH gathering to beat my frinds at, a wife to placate, and children to amuse. It'd not be ready before Christmas.

1. I was factoring bonus spells from a high Cha score.

2. I think I was looking at the wrong line for spells/day.

Ah. Everyone's human. I was worrying there was some mystical ability I'd missed: I'm just coming out of a 18 month hibernation, so still feeling a little rusty.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Now 3e did help in some respects. Fighters, in addition to have no class features to speak of, just specializations and double specializations and such if you went that route, had the worst saving throws of any class. In every category. The 3e equivalent would be three weak saves.

Nitpick: They started out with the worst saves, but when you hit level 7 or so they started to pull ahead, ending up with the best saves array of all the classes. Sort of a Linear Wizards, Quadratic Warriors scenario.

 

[Dandu]

Your soul is mine.

 

[Greg K]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on summoning and binding celestials. As a DM, if I were running, your character may have made a short term gain, but most likely just made serious enemies for the rest of the campaign. You've just summoned and imprisoned something against its will- not a good act. It may have had other more pressing matters to deal with. It is not going to be happy about being "enslaved" by a mortal and, most likely, neither are other celestials.

 

[Nifft]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on summoning and binding celestials. As a DM, your character may have made a short term gain, but most likely just made serious enemies for the rest of the campaign. You've just summoned and imprisoned something against its will- not a good act. It may have had other more pressing matters to deal with. It is not going to be happy about being "enslaved" by a mortal and, most likely, neither are other celestials.

Yeah, those Celestials are total bastards.

"How dare you pay me to help save the universe!"

-- N