The issue with wizards and sorcerers

[Dandu]

those spells make them...well worth doing?

Would you care for a practical demonstration?

and enervation is really only used by badguys (atleast for me, so dont yell if you use it because I really like that spell)

It's Necromancy, alright... but not tagged as [Evil].

what you get is spells that are powerful in the right circumstances

Very true. Of course, one could argue that a Fighter is also only useful in the right circumstances. For example, when fighting a Dragon who decides to fly around casting spells and strafing the party with his breath weapon, a fighter becomes much less useful than if the dragon was fighting on the ground.

Not that you'd ever really want to engage a dragon in melee, but still...

Anyways, I'd argue that most of the spells I listed are useful in a wide variety of situations.

really, a wizard is a force multiplyer, but whats any number times zero? or any number times 1?

From my experience, two wizards are more effective in the standard 4 encounters per day model than a wizard and a fighter, who are in turn more effective than two fighters starting from... about level 6 on.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

2 wizards in a group is like..well its good a higher levels, thats not in question...but a good DM knows how to make all the characters take a step in the spotlight...so yeah, atleast how I play, the idea is to make everyone have something to do, some time to shine

...or a way to kill everyone

and the dragon...well id rather be in melee with the great beast than have it flying around, that just gets deadly...and fast

or even...a beholder can destroy a wizard's power with an antimagic cone (his big eye, the one he never uses...because it also shuts him down too)
then its all bite and psh...what kind of behold bites?

 

[Dandu]

2 wizards in a group is like..well its good a higher levels, thats not in question...but a good DM knows how to make all the characters take a step in the spotlight...so yeah, atleast how I play, the idea is to make everyone have something to do, some time to shine

That's very true, but you're working against an flaw (imbalance) in the system instead of working with the system.

or even...a beholder can destroy a wizard's power with an antimagic cone (his big eye, the one he never uses...because it also shuts him down too)
then its all bite and psh...what kind of behold bites?

Move out of AOE/block line of effect, start casting spells.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

you can just MOVE out of one, you have to be a badass and use tumble...yeah, not really

and like I said, DMing

we got murdered by one in a hall, you couldnt, it just wouldnt work


that and one time I was flying....bad memories


and the system isnt imbalanced, its just...skewd
curved

it works, if it didnt then it would be such a great game and we would be talking...so yeah...besides, what good are spells if they dont seem powerful?

 

[Dandu]

you can just MOVE out of one, you have to be a badass and use tumble...yeah, not really

There are many situations where you can find cover, correct? Behind a door, for example, or around a corner. Not useable in all cases, granted.

we got murdered by one in a hall, you couldnt, it just wouldnt work

There's a few ways around this.

1. Tower Shield. Deploy, activate total cover, then Dimension Door out.
2. Shrink Item + very large Adamantine Cone Hat. In an antimagic field, the Shrink Item spell is dismissed, so a large hat now covers you and blocks off LoE.

That's a little besides the point, though, which is that yes, there are situations in which a wizard is less than useful/useless. In a situation specifically designed to screw over a spellcaster, they don't fare well. But that's true with any class and doesn't prove as much as, say, examining how a class fares against a wide variety of encounters, in which you'll probably see a difference in ability to contribute.

That's kinda the point when "the issue with wizards and sorcerers" is brought up.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

1. Tower Shield. Deploy, activate total cover, then Dimension Door out.
2. Shrink Item + very large Adamantine Cone Hat. In an antimagic field, the Shrink Item spell is dismissed, so a large hat now covers you and blocks off LoE.

its an antimagic cone, it isnt blocked by cover or the like, I mean...atleast not in our rules, antimagic is like radiation, it goes through the shield, it stops magic

so yeah...cover wouldnt work for me, and the adamantine cone...well that would suck for the characters, whats worse than fighting a beholder? being trapped under an adamantine cone hat while fighting a beholder....

not a bad idea, but still...antimagic goes through normal materials UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE MATERIAL SPEACIAL RULES and yeah....


besides, the beholder could just disintegrate it if antimagic isnt working

 

[Dandu]

its an antimagic cone, it isnt blocked by cover or the like, I mean...atleast not in our rules, antimagic is like radiation, it goes through the shield, it stops magic

You may be right for this one, but on different grounds; it might flow around the shield. I was thinking of the Cone of Cold when I heard about the antimagic cone, but it references antimagic field, and the field will suppress anything in the field even if it has total cover.

so yeah...cover wouldnt work for me, and the adamantine cone...well that would suck for the characters, whats worse than fighting a beholder? being trapped under an adamantine cone hat while fighting a beholder....

You're stuck under with someone who can teleport you out. This works to your advantage.

not a bad idea, but still...antimagic goes through normal materials UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE MATERIAL SPEACIAL RULES and yeah....

Where does it say that?

besides, the beholder could just disintegrate it if antimagic isnt working

Beholder's turn: activate antimagic
Party's turn: teleport out to safety
Beholder's turn: turn off antimagic in order to disintegrate.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

actually, the antimagic stuff isnt talked about enough, so its just a rule we made

actually to use against badguys
but its backfired on us MANY TIMES


and you cant teleport out of an antimagic area, all magic is surpressed

everburning torches go out
your stoneskin goes away
ect. ect.

so yeah...being in a antimagic zone is like handcuffing the fighter to a wall

you may say "but the spellcaster can just move out of the area"

and to that I say "the fighter can just bust teh chains with his strength"

so yeah...I think its funny I come preaching about all classes equal

 

[Dandu]

and you cant teleport out of an antimagic area, all magic is surpressed

everburning torches go out
your stoneskin goes away
ect. ect.

Yes, but if you're completely blocked off from the AMF, you're safe by RAW.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

...if youre blocked off from the AMF then why teleport out of it?

thats like "im already not on fire, im gonna roll around on the ground"

I just realized this whole conversation is between me and you on the topic of what you can and cannot do under the effects of antimagic