The Knockback Feat (Or, if you just want combatants flying through the air . . .)

Forrester

First Post
NOTE: New improved version appears two posts below.

Knockback
Prerequisites: Str 20 (?)
On a successful melee attack the attacker may choose to begin a modified Bull Rush against his opponent, at –10 on the check (i.e., competing Strength checks, with a +4 or –4 bonus/penalty for differences in size.) The defender is knocked back five feet for every two points by which he failed the check. The attacker may try only one Knockback a round.
Someone knocked back must make a Reflex save (DC=number of feet knocked back, max DC20) or fall prone.
The attacker gets +4 to his check if he attacks with a blunt weapon (such as a club or fist).


EXAMPLE: A raging ogre barbarian (say strength 30) wielding a greatclub is fighting a human fighter (say strength 20). The ogre attacks and connects with his first attack, and elects to try to knock the fighter into next week.

He rolls an 11 on his strength check -- which turns into 19 (+10 for Str, +4 for size, -6 for using the feat). The fighter rolls an 10 on his strength check (which turns into a 15). The fighter loses the check by 8, and gets knocked back ten feet. No full-attack for him!

The next round, the ogre connects and does a little better. He rolls an 18 on his strength check (turns into a 22), and the fighter blows it with a 5 (turns into a 10). The fighter gets knocked back 40 feet, and probably falls on his ass.

Finally, a reason to use a greatclub instead of a greatsword!


If you want more mobile combat in your campaign, you could make this maneuver available to everyone, I suppose. It would lead to the addition of feats that would aid defenders/attackers against it, like "Immovable: +4 to defending against Knockback", and such.


Comments? Is it too imbalanced, do you think? It's certainly a boon for dragons, and as a member of B.A.D.D. in good standing, I hope they'll approve.
 
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I think your numbers are a bit off. As is, Arnold Schwarzenegger (Str 20) could punch me (Str 7), and if he rolled a nat 20, and I rolled a nat 1, he'd knock me back 50 ft. Even in high fantasy, that's a little much.


The following is excerpted from the revised rules from Four-Color to Fantasy: Modern Edition.

Knock-back
As an attack action, you may attempt a knock-back, similar to a bull rush, in which you use the force of your blow to knock an opponent backward or to the side, without having to pursue him. Though great strength is usually required to knock an opponent back like this, you must consciously choose to knock your foe back, regardless of your strength, since most hits do not provide enough thrusting power in a single direction to move your foe much.


Making a Knock-back Attack: You must declare a knock-back before you make your attack roll. Note that making a knock-back is an attack action in itself, so it cannot be made during a full attack action. Make your attack roll as normal, but if you hit, do not add your Strength modifier to your damage, since most of the force is being used to push back, not injure.

Then, make a Strength check, using your effective Strength for lifting, carrying, and throwing, as determined above. The DC of this Strength check depends on the size of your target.

Fine: DC 4.
Diminutive: DC 8.
Tiny: DC 12.
Small: DC 16.
Medium-size: DC 20.
Large: DC 24.
Huge: DC 28.
Gargantuan: DC 32.
Colossal: DC 36.

At the game master’s prerogative, the DC may be reduced for creatures that are lighter than their size would suggest, or increased for those that are heavier than average. A Large iron golem would probably count as a Gargantuan creature because of its immense weight, while a hollow Huge whicker monster might only count as Large for the purposes of moving it. Also, knock-backs do not work against creatures that are intangible, and the game master may rule that certain types of creatures cannot be knocked back because of their substance or structure. Air, fire, and water elementals cannot normally be knocked back, nor could a golem made of thin paper, since the mass of the creature is not solid enough to knock-back.

If you beat the DC of the target, you knock it back 5 feet, plus 1 foot for every point by which you succeeded, in the direction you choose. This direction obviously must be away from you, not toward you. You may choose to hit the target a shorter distance if you want. To determine how high the target flies, divide the total distance by four; this is the usual height of the target at the apex of its flight. When the target hits the ground, he takes 1d6 points of impact damage from falling and skidding.

If the target strikes a solid object before it travels its full distance, both it and the object it strikes take 1 point of damage for each foot of distance left. This is in addition to the 1d6 points of damage the opponent takes when he lands. If this is enough for the target to break through the object, he will keep flying, possibly striking more targets.

If the target thrown is smaller or larger than Medium-size, it takes the same damage from an impact, but deals one-half as much for each size category smaller, or two times as much for each size category larger.


Knock-back Tricks: Sometimes you want to do more than just send your foe flying.

If the path of your knock-backed foe travels through the square of another creature, that creature can choose to either try to dodge, or try to stop the flying creature. If the creature wants to stop the projectile, make an opposed Strength check against that creature, as if with a bull rush, including normal modifiers for size. Instead of your normal Strength bonus, use the remaining feet in the knocked-back creature’s flight as your bonus. If the creature succeeds its check, the knocked-back foe lands prone in that square, and takes full damage as if it had struck an inanimate object. The creature that blocked the flight takes no damage.

If it fails its Strength check, then both creatures fly along the same path as the first one. The distance they travel is equal to either the amount left in the original creature’s flight, or the amount by which you beat the interposing creature’s Strength check, whichever is less. Neither one takes any damage until they land or strike a solid surface.

If the creature wants to dodge, it must succeed a Reflex save (DC 10). If successful, then it avoids the projectile, and the knocked-back creature continues its movement. If the creature fails its Reflex save, treat it as if it tried to block the flight, and rolled a natural 1 for its Strength check.

You may also try to intentionally use your knock-backed foe as a ranged weapon, trying to deal damage. After you succeed in the knock-back, make a normal ranged attack roll (usually with a –4 non-proficiency penalty, unless you take Exotic Weapon: Punted Supervillain). Assume that a knocked-back creature has a range increment of 5 ft. This is not a touch attack, since you could strike and still not deal damage. If you successfully hit, deal damage the same way as if the hurled foe had struck an inanimate object. If you beat the touch AC, but not the full AC, the hurled foe takes full damage, but the target you were trying to hit takes none.

If there are creatures in the way of a deliberate ranged attack like this, then they provide a cover bonus to the target’s AC, unless those creatures want to dodge. Instead of having targets make Reflex saves to dodge in this case, simply assume that since you’re trying to avoid them, and they’re trying to avoid you, they don’t provide cover.


Throwing Foes: In order to throw a creature that is struggling, you must use a full-round action to attempt to grab and throw that foe. First, make an attack as if you were trying to grapple your opponent, with a –10 penalty. If you are successful, make a ranged attack roll, just as if you were trying to throw a log or something similar. You suffer a –4 penalty to your attack roll because your opponent is struggling, in addition to the –4 penalty from being non-proficient, unless you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (giant ranged weapons). If your foe is paralyzed or unconscious, you do not suffer the –4 penalty from its struggling.

If you already are in a grapple, you can, as an attack action, make an opposed grapple check with a –10 penalty to throw your opponent. Then make a normal ranged attack roll, with the –4 penalty as detailed above.

Example One: A slumbering ancient wyrm gold Dragon is awakened when he senses a pair of kobold thieves stealing trinkets from his horde. Instead of crushing them in his lair and having to clean up the mess, the Dragon follows them until they exit his cave, then strikes, hoping to have some fun and play kobold golf. He easily succeeds a knock-back attack, and makes his Strength check against DC 16 (since kobolds are small). He rolls poorly, and gets only a 32, and thus punts the scaly thief 21 feet down the mountainside. The normal attack, plus the falling damage, easily kills the small brigand.

He chases after the second kobold as it screams and runs for its life, and this time does better, getting a Strength check of 46. With a pitiful wail, the kobold flies a satisfying 35 feet, and a new Draconic sport is born.

Example Two: While placidly playing with a group of street urchins, Zidi spots a giant Goblin charging the town’s walls. Her first attack – hurling a wagon at it – doesn’t take it down, and the Goblin is smart enough to send his normal-sized minions in first to soften up the Halfling Titan. Zidi doesn’t worry much about the small Goblins, but she can’t reach their huge leader, so she adopts new tactics.

With a fierce punch, she tries to knock a Goblin warrior into his leader. She easily hits, and rolls a 31 for her Strength check, enough to knock the Goblin the 20 feet to his boss. Unfortunately, there are too many other Goblins in the way, and after flying only 5 feet the hurled Goblin enters the same square as one of his comrades. The Goblin tries dodge, but fails his Reflex save, and is hit nearly completely off balance. The two Goblins could continue to fly 15 more feet, but there is one more Goblin right in front of the leader, who loyally tries to block his flying comrades. Since by this point they only have 5 feet of flight left in them, Zidi only has a +5 bonus to her opposed Strength check, and the Goblin manages to stop the projectiles. Both the Goblins that were flying take 1d6+5 points of impact damage from the landing, but the Goblin who stopped them is unhurt.

Peturbed, Zidi tries the next best thing the next round, and looks for a good Goblin to throw.
 

RangerWickett said:
I think your numbers are a bit off. As is, Arnold Schwarzenegger (Str 20) could punch me (Str 7), and if he rolled a nat 20, and I rolled a nat 1, he'd knock me back 50 ft.

And you'd deserve it, for not including your feat in the original 4CTF (which I bought the day it came out) :)


Even in high fantasy, that's a little much.

Hmmm. Stupid d20 system. Yeah, 50 ft is a little much.

But I think your system is a little on the wimpy side. Okay, a lot on the wimpy side.


Making a Knock-back Attack: You must declare a knock-back before you make your attack roll. Note that making a knock-back is an attack action in itself, so it cannot be made during a full attack action. Make your attack roll as normal, but if you hit, do not add your Strength modifier to your damage, since most of the force is being used to push back, not injure.

Then, make a Strength check, using your effective Strength for lifting, carrying, and throwing, as determined above. The DC of this Strength check depends on the size of your target.

Fine: DC 4.
Diminutive: DC 8.
Tiny: DC 12.
Small: DC 16.
Medium-size: DC 20.
Large: DC 24.
Huge: DC 28.
Gargantuan: DC 32.
Colossal: DC 36.

. . .

If you beat the DC of the target, you knock it back 5 feet, plus 1 foot for every point by which you succeeded, in the direction you choose.

. . .

Example One: A slumbering ancient wyrm gold Dragon is awakened when he senses a pair of kobold thieves stealing trinkets from his horde. Instead of crushing them in his lair and having to clean up the mess, the Dragon follows them until they exit his cave, then strikes, hoping to have some fun and play kobold golf. He easily succeeds a knock-back attack, and makes his Strength check against DC 16 (since kobolds are small). He rolls poorly, and gets only a 32, and thus punts the scaly thief 21 feet down the mountainside. The normal attack, plus the falling damage, easily kills the small brigand.

He chases after the second kobold as it screams and runs for its life, and this time does better, getting a Strength check of 46. With a pitiful wail, the kobold flies a satisfying 35 feet, and a new Draconic sport is born.

While Ahnold knocking you back 50' on a perfect roll is too high, an ancient gold wyrm knocking a tiny kobold back 35 feet on a great roll is, no offense, pretty damn lame. The light load for an ancient gold wyrm is what, 68,000lbs or so? And he put ALL of his effort in this round into making one attack to play kobold golf?

And he knocks him back a lousy 35 feet? He is going to be mocked, and mocked heavily, by . . . okay, not a lot of stuff out there willing to mock a CR26 creature, but you get the gist.

It sounds like it's too late to change it in your revised 4CTF, but I'm not sure that your version is going to give fans of mobile combat what they're looking for. Just too small an effect (though maybe it's big enough when, as is common in superhero games, lots o' people are running around with effective strengths of 50+).
 
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Okay, a new version.

Knockback
Prerequisites: Str 20 (?)
On a successful melee attack the attacker may attempt to knock his foe into next week. To do this he conducts a modified Str check against his opponent (d20 -10 for the Knockback + his actual strength -- not the modifier, but his actual strength -- and adds +8 for each size category difference).
The defender is knocked back one foot for every point by which he fails the contest. The attacker may try only one Knockback a round.
Someone knocked back must make a Reflex save (DC=number of feet knocked back, max DC20) or fall prone.

(NOTE: I leave matters of damage and whether blunt weapons make it easier for later. My inclination is 1/2 damage, and then handle the rest as Ranger describes.)

EXAMPLE 1: Ahnold (Str20) is pissed off at RangerW (Str7) for coming out with a new version of 4CTF after he went out and bought the original. He swings at RangerW and hits, and decides to knock RangerW into next week.
1A: Ahnold rolls a '10' on his check, making his total 10-10+20=20. RangerW rolls a '10' on his check, making his total 17. RangerW is knocked back 3 feet (round down to 0). No big deal.
1B: Bad karma! Ahnold rolls a '20' on his check, making his total 20-10+20=30. RangerW rolls a '1', making his total 8. RangerW is knocked back 22 feet (round down to 20). In high fantasy, not really too bizarre an event.

EXAMPLE 2: Arrggh the Raging Ogre Barbarian (Str30) is pissed off at Ahnold (Str20) because RangerW hired him to get some revenge. He swings at Ahnold and hits, and decides to knock Ahnold into next week.
2A: Arrggh rolls a '10' on his check, making his total 10-10+8(size)+30(Str) = 38. Ahnold rolls a '10', making his total 30. Ahnold is knocked back 8 feet (round down to 5feet). No big deal. Ahnold can probably take a 5' step and still get a full attack next round.
2B: Bad karma! Arrggh rolls a '20' on his check, making his total 20-10+8(size)+30(Str)=48. Ahnold rolls a '1', making his total 21. Ahnold gets knocked back 27 feet (round down to 25). That's what Ahnold gets for messing with an ogre that size. (Note that a standard ogre would have a Str that was 10 less, and on average he wouldn't move Ahnold back at all).

EXAMPLE 3: Wyrmy the Great Gold Wyrm (Str47) is pissed off at RangerW (Str7) because RangerW made him knock a kobold a lousy 35 feet. Wyrmy vows to do better with RangerW. He swings at RangerW and hits, and decides to knock him into next YEAR.
3A: Wyrmy rolls a '10' on his check, making his total 10-10+32(4 size categories) + 47 = 79. RangerW rolls a 10, making his check 17. RangerW goes flying for 62 feet (round to 60'). Figures. He deserved it.
3B: Looks like someone else will be finishing the new 4CTF. Wyrmy rolls a '20' on his check, making his total 20-10+32+47=89. RangerW rolls a '1', making his total 8. RangerW goes flying 81 feet. Cool!


Note that 4CTF effectively gives +5 per size category instead of +8 (the figure typically used in standard Str-like checks). This would knock down the distances a bit in the last two examples, but not too much.

What do you think? I have to say, I like this a lot better.
 
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I saw your reply a little late tonight, so I'll have to respond in more depth tomorrow or Friday (bloody school week), but I do suppose the numbers could be upped a little more. Some things you might want to look at are Olympic shot put records. Those things weigh 15 pounds, I think, and tough guys can throw them a good 60 ft, if I recall correctly. I did a fair amount of research when I revised Tournaments, Fairs, & Taverns for the print version, to make sure the throwing distances were accurate, assuming your average Olympic athlete had a stat of 19 in either Str, Dex, or Con, and was 4th level.

I like your examples, though. ;)
 

Okay, again I don't have much time to type, but I can post some ideas.

My primary tenets for these rules:

A person with a low strength should not be able to knock back someone his same size more than 5 ft., regardless of his roll.

Similarly, even a really strong human (20 Str) should not be able to send someone more than 15 ft. with a single attack. Just measure out 15 ft., get a 12-lb. bowling ball, and try kicking it that far. If your Strength is 10, then that bowling ball is equivalent to a Str 20 person kicking or punching a 50 lb. object.

I don't think it should be an opposed Strength check if you just want to knock someone back. With a bull rush, you're shoving them back and both of you are using the ground for leverage, so relative Strength is important. However, if you're just hitting someone a long distance because of the force of your blow, you're probably knocking them off the ground, so their Strength is of no benefit. The difficulty should be based on the target's mass, not its Strength.

There should be some sort of drawback so that knocking someone back is not an effective way of killing your opponent, at least compared to just beating him up. You should not give knockback for free on top of the normal damage dealt with an attack. However, requiring a feat is not a valid solution either, since basically you're just kicking a ball in the shape of a human; this requires no special training unless you want to actually use that human as a missile weapon.
 

I don't know FEATS from feet, but I'm fond of basing special effects in D&D on a threshold of 1/2 current HPs.

For cinematic, maybe 1' per point of damage over this threshold.

For more realistic, reduce the above by 1' per point the target's STR or some value based on size (perhaps multiply the STR by a size multiplier)--with values <= 0 merely resulting in knockdown or stun.

To make it into a FEAT, allow the FEAT to add to the damage roll for purposes of knockdown only--alternately, these bonus points are only added if the threshold is first reached.

For example, Fighter #1 has the "Send'em Flyin'" FEAT which adds 3 to his damage for knockdown purposes. He hits his foe (HP16, Sz M, STR7) for 14(+3) points of damage, reducing his HPs to 2, and sending him falling backwards 2' (17dmg-8threshold-7str) in a realistic campaign, or 9' (17dmg-8threshold) in a cinematic one.

If adding a bonus for a FEAT only after determining knockback, the bonus should probably be larger, as it doesn't make knockback/knockdown more likely to occur--just more likely to be of greater magnitude.

Adding the bonus, if any, to damage before comparing to the threshold however makes knockback/knockdown more likely to occur--and so should be a smaller bonus in such cases.

Anyway, just a few odd thoughts to get the creative juices flowing...
 

RangerWickett said:
Okay, again I don't have much time to type, but I can post some ideas.

My primary tenets for these rules:

A person with a low strength should not be able to knock back someone his same size more than 5 ft., regardless of his roll.

Fair enough. Using my system, you fighting your twin would have a maximum check of 9 feet (and that's if you roll a 20 and your twin rolls a 1 -- pretty damn rare), and throughout I've been making it so that you *always* round down . . . 9 feet would round down to 5 feet.


Similarly, even a really strong human (20 Str) should not be able to send someone more than 15 ft. with a single attack. Just measure out 15 ft., get a 12-lb. bowling ball, and try kicking it that far. If your Strength is 10, then that bowling ball is equivalent to a Str 20 person kicking or punching a 50 lb. object.

Using my system, at the extreme end, Ahnold is knocking you back only 20 feet, and he's usually not knocking you back at all. A little exaggerated, but not much.


I don't think it should be an opposed Strength check if you just want to knock someone back. With a bull rush, you're shoving them back and both of you are using the ground for leverage, so relative Strength is important. However, if you're just hitting someone a long distance because of the force of your blow, you're probably knocking them off the ground, so their Strength is of no benefit. The difficulty should be based on the target's mass, not its Strength.

That's more realistic, yes, but someone's strength is roughly proportional to their weight, at least in real life. Ahnold should be able to knock you (Str7) back farther than his twin. I'm going out on a limb and assuming that given you gave yourself a Str of 7, you're not as hefty as Ahnold, no?

But I can see the reasoning behind your DC system. One less roll to make, too, which is nice.

My main problem with your system is that the distances suck so badly. You've been doing some math -- okay, how far should something with a light load of 68,000 pounds be able to toss something that weighs less than a 100? About as far as I can throw a one pound object? That's more than 42 feet.


There should be some sort of drawback so that knocking someone back is not an effective way of killing your opponent, at least compared to just beating him up. You should not give knockback for free on top of the normal damage dealt with an attack. However, requiring a feat is not a valid solution either, since basically you're just kicking a ball in the shape of a human; this requires no special training unless you want to actually use that human as a missile weapon.

My main concern with your Knockback was "realism", if you can believe that; I really think that a dragon should be able to knock a kobold back farther than 35 feet. In fact, I was thinking of adding some sort of multiplier to the system. If you are the same size, maybe it's x0.5 the distance given. If one larger, it's the given distance, Two larger, x1.5. Three larger, x2. Four larger, x3. Five larger, x4.

Now that's shotputting a kobold.

But your last paragraph is about game balance . . . and that's a tough thing. I was thinking allowing someone to knock someone back as a full-round; if they have to sacrifice ALL their other attacks and movement, and maybe do 1/2 Str damage on the hit, I think we maintain balance.

If they take the feat, though, they can tack it on to an already-made attack, once a round. (Maybe they have to declare it before the attack).
 

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