D&D 5E The Limit, The Floor, or the Average?

[Charlaquin]

I’m gonna do some re-organizing of your post so I can respond by subject, hope you don’t mind.

Huh. I guess I just can’t really grok the perspective of folks who play RAW. Nothing wrong with it, it just...I guess it’s...alien, is a dumb word for it, but I can’t think of a better one.
(...)
Different philosophy then, for sure. IMO, the rules aren’t important at all (I don’t actually recognize them as rules, we just use the term either in the same way that we use Laws when talking about Internet forum behavior, or how one might use rules when discussing the mechanics of any complex system. They don’t govern play, the just facilitate it.)

I mean, yeah, I agree that the rules facilitate rather than govern play. But I try to first understand what the rules actually say and what kind of gameplay experience they are intended to create. Then I’ll tweak from there if I feel it’s warranted to better facilitate that gameplay experience. Or use a different ruleset if I want a different gameplay experience.

On top of that, I view reality as a useful font of inspiration, and IME nearly every player (about 8 or 9 in 10 IME) finds it unsatisfying off they figure out that their PC are being limited beyond what real people are limited to. If they ask to do some parkour, drawing direct inspiration from videos they’ve watched of freerunners, and I say they can’t even roll to try, they pretty inescapably feel like their acrobat is less acrobatic than amateur acrobatic Assassin’s Creed cosplayers on YouTube.

Hang on, I never said characters can’t do parkour! I just said the height and distance they can jump is defined by the rules, and if they want to do something outside what’s defined by the rules, they do so according to the basic pattern of play. Describe what you want to accomplish and what your character does to try to accomplish it, and I’ll resolve that action as I would any other. I don’t know what about that gives you the impression parkour isn’t allowed.

But I’m also not sure I understand your actual approach and it’s difference to my own, after reading this. If a character is trying to sprint full speed to reach a macguffin before it explodes, and other characters are in combat, so rounds are relevant because seconds and timing count, would you let them roll Athletics to run faster than their speed?

This is a very unusual scenario, and I’m not sure I can answer how I would handle it outside the context of actual gameplay where such a situation has actually arisen. I guess if the character is in a situation where time is being measured in turns, they can move their speed and they can Dash, but I can’t confidently say that it would be appropriate to be measuring time in turns for that character without more context.

How fast you can run 100 meters is best determined by how many miles you can walk in a day!? How!?

100 meters is pretty close to 300 feet, which is the distance traveled in 1 minute at a normal pace. At a fast pace, you can travel 400 feet in a minute, so that’s one and one third times as fast, so you should be able to travel 100 meters in about 40 seconds at a fast pace, give or take. So that’s what the rules allow under typical circumstances. If you want to do something outside those parameters, you do so via the basic pattern of play - describe what you want to do and how your character tries to do it. For example, “I go into an all-out sprint to try to reach the McGuffin before it explodes.” Then I will resolve that as I do any other action, by considering if it can succeed (is it possible to run that distance in that time?) if it can fail (is there any reasonable chance you wouldn’t make it in time?) and if there’s a cost or consequence for failure (in this case, the McGuffin exploding before you get to it certainly seems to fit that bill). If the answer to all three questions is yes, I’ll call for a check, otherwise I will narrate the outcome.

 

[cbwjm]

Even though the listed weights are often less than what strong man competitors can do?

I don't really worry about what's capable in the real world, especially when it comes to the extremes of capability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’m gonna do some re-organizing of your post so I can respond by subject, hope you don’t mind.

I mean, yeah, I agree that the rules facilitate rather than govern play. But I try to first understand what the rules actually say and what kind of gameplay experience they are intended to create. Then I’ll tweak from there if I feel it’s warranted to better facilitate that gameplay experience. Or use a different ruleset if I want a different gameplay experience.

Yeah fair enough

Hang on, I never said characters can’t do parkour! I just said the height and distance they can jump is defined by the rules, and if they want to do something outside what’s defined by the rules, they do so according to the basic pattern of play. Describe what you want to accomplish and what your character does to try to accomplish it, and I’ll resolve that action as I would any other. I don’t know what about that gives you the impression parkour isn’t allowed.

Huh. Sorry, not sure how that happened. I wasn’t trying to say you had indicated any such thing, I was using parkour as an example of a thing that bothers me in D&D .

This is a very unusual scenario, and I’m not sure I can answer how I would handle it outside the context of actual gameplay where such a situation has actually arisen. I guess if the character is in a situation where time is being measured in turns, they can move their speed and they can Dash, but I can’t confidently say that it would be appropriate to be measuring time in turns for that character without more context.

This is why I don’t like specific examples. The point is to examine a scenario where movement needs to be measured in seconds, not minutes or hours or days, and that isn’t necessarily combat.

100 meters is pretty close to 300 feet, which is the distance traveled in 1 minute at a normal pace. At a fast pace, you can travel 400 feet in a minute, so that’s one and one third times as fast, so you should be able to travel 100 meters in about 40 seconds at a fast pace, give or take. So that’s what the rules allow under typical circumstances.

Yeah I guess I just...can’t help but figure out what that works out to in mph, and then compare to average adult running speed, walking speed, etc.

If you want to do something outside those parameters, you do so via the basic pattern of play - describe what you want to do and how your character tries to do it. For example, “I go into an all-out sprint to try to reach the McGuffin before it explodes.” Then I will resolve that as I do any other action, by considering if it can succeed (is it possible to run that distance in that time?) if it can fail (is there any reasonable chance you wouldn’t make it in time?) and if there’s a cost or consequence for failure (in this case, the McGuffin exploding before you get to it certainly seems to fit that bill). If the answer to all three questions is yes, I’ll call for a check, otherwise I will narrate the outcome.

So...it seems like we might run it the same way, but describe how we run it differently. Maybe? Because that reads like you treat the numbers in the book as what the PCs can do without making an ability check to do more, which is what I described as using them as a floor.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't really worry about what's capable in the real world, especially when it comes to the extremes of capability.

Huh. Fair enough! I like...can’t ignore stuff like that. It’s like how my wife’s ADHD doesn’t allow her to tune out sounds and my ADHD doesn’t allow me to ignore physical sensations, I also can’t “tune out” stuff where I know a real person who is fit or strong or whatever can do more than what I’m being allowed to do in a game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, in case anyone was curious, 60ft per 6 seconds is 10ft per second. That’s 600ft per minute, 36k ft per hour, which is 6.82 mph. Average human running speed is at least twice that, and as much as over three times that if we only look at trained runners in good health. So a Dash is still very much “combat movement”, ie pretty slow.

I just can’t ignore that, which is why I allow an ability check to increase speed when Dashing. it’s hard to hit someone running full speed, so I don’t give any kind of defense penalty for sprinting, but you do have disadvantage on attack rolls unless you’ve run straight at someone, and there is a risk of you and your target falling prone.

This makes the game more fun, for us. YMMV

EDIT: 18mph is about 156 feet per 6 seconds. Rogues with Mobile can get close RAW (120), and Monks can beat that with Step of The Wind (varies, starts same as rogue, eventually hits 180, 210 with Mobile), but neither can actually compete in a 100m foot race.

 

[S'mon]

Hm, varies a lot.
I definitely allow visual detection beyond Darkvision range; I treat it more as the point where you can reliably spot a man-sized object, not as a hard cutoff.
Jump distance I treat as the distance you can reliably jump in perfect conditions. Anything else likely needs an Athletics check.
Movement rates are for in-combat movement. Outside combat I use Athletics and/or Acrobatics checks for chases and such. The exact distance moved doesn't matter.
Encumbrance, I treat as the amount you can reliably carry. If lifting a heavy weight etc then roll Athletics.

Athletics is a handy skill IMCs.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hm, varies a lot.
I definitely allow visual detection beyond Darkvision range; I treat it more as the point where you can reliably spot a man-sized object, not as a hard cutoff.
Jump distance I treat as the distance you can reliably jump in perfect conditions. Anything else likely needs an Athletics check.
Movement rates are for in-combat movement. Outside combat I use Athletics and/or Acrobatics checks for chases and such. The exact distance moved doesn't matter.
Encumbrance, I treat as the amount you can reliably carry. If lifting a heavy weight etc then roll Athletics.

Athletics is a handy skill IMCs.

Hell yeah. I love making Athletics matter.

Acrobatics is too, IMCs. Between reducing falling damage, tumbling to avoid OAs, and parkour, there is a lot for both skills to do!

 

[S'mon]

So, in case anyone was curious, 60ft per 6 seconds is 10ft per second. That’s 600ft per minute, 36k ft per hour, which is 6.82 mph. Average human running speed is at least twice that, and as much as over three times that if we only look at trained runners in good health. So a Dash is still very much “combat movement”, ie pretty slow.

I just can’t ignore that, which is why I allow an ability check to increase speed when Dashing. it’s hard to hit someone running full speed, so I don’t give any kind of defense penalty for sprinting, but you do have disadvantage on attack rolls unless you’ve run straight at someone, and there is a risk of you and your target falling prone.

This makes the game more fun, for us. YMMV

EDIT: 18mph is about 156 feet per 6 seconds. Rogues with Mobile can get close RAW (120), and Monks can beat that with Step of The Wind (varies, starts same as rogue, eventually hits 180, 210 with Mobile), but neither can actually compete in a 100m foot race.

The real-world human sprinter or long jumper is definitely 'taking an action' - they're not leaping the 20' pit, landing on their feet, and stabbing an orc on the far side, all at once. That's the kind of situation the rules are designed to cover.

 

[Shiroiken]

Do you use variant encumbrance or standard?

Id probably use rolls for exceeding carry capacity more if using variant encumbrance.

I'd like to, but my group hates the idea. I track it for my character, and while I don't suffer any mechanical penalties, I RP the fact that I'm carrying a medium/heavy load.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You can do what the rules say you can do - you can see as far as your Darkvision allows, you can climb and swim as fast as your speed allows, you can jump as far and as high as your strength allows, carry as much as your strengths allows, etc. A roll is never required to do these things, and a roll is not normally possible to exceed their parameters. However, as with all things, if your goal is to exceed those parameters and you have an approach that would reasonably make that goal achievable, go ahead and declare that action! It might require a roll to pull off, if it has a reasonable chance of failure and failure would have a meaningful consequence.

Yeah I tend to be in a similar place. They're more like the limit than the floor, but if you can line things up right, you might be able to exceed them in a limited way, for a limited time. I do avoid any situation which would create a "you can always roll to run faster" situation or anything though. As you say, there needs to be a chance of failure and a meaningful consequence.

As an aside, I'm surprised how often the actual limits of weight re: encumbrance have come up in 5E. Not in day-to-day looting and equipment hauling, but in terms of trying to move large objects I didn't expect to be moved and so on.

The real-world human sprinter or long jumper is definitely 'taking an action' - they're not leaping the 20' pit, landing on their feet, and stabbing an orc on the far side, all at once. That's the kind of situation the rules are designed to cover.

Yup.