D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

My point is we aren't reaching what is mundanely Possibly so how can we draw the line of the supernatural martial except for the wildly overly supernatural martial.

I mean people are saying Batman and Hawkeye are supernatural just to validate a trick shot

Again, you are talking about a specific rule set, not concept. Most of the discussion has been about the concept . The idea that people want to play something beyond what is physically possible.

People want to play Heracles. So how do you that? One way is to draw a line and say beyond this point there be dragons (or in this case supes). Where that is or should be is a point of discussion. It could be lvl 10, or 20, or 30.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

But wouldn't that be typically of high level character who aren't spending most of their day researching strange arcane formula or communing with powerful outsiders and gods?

If you cheapen sciences and lores to a single skill and feat but magic to a major character absorbing concept with various subsystems...

A high level character without magic would have time and mental space to know a half dozen specialties and be an expert at all of them.

If being a high level spellcaster is a 10 point aspect, a high level martial should have space for five 2 point mundane martial aspects. Or a 6 point supernatural martial aspect and two 2 point mundane martial aspects.

Ok, this has become another thread about martial vs caster balance. I’m not interested in that. I will leave for greener pastures- enjoy your discussion!

 

[Minigiant]

Again, you are talking about a specific rule set, not concept. Most of the discussion has been about the concept . The idea that people want to play something beyond what is physically possible.

People want to play Heracles. So how do you that? One way is to draw a line and say beyond this point there be dragons (or in this case supes). Where that is or should be is a point of discussion. It could be lvl 10, or 20, or 30.

It's not about specific ruleset.

I'm saying "What about Hawkeye, Deadshot, or Usopp?"

The thread's premise is that all martials above level 10 must be supernatural.

 

[dave2008]

I'm going to jump in here then leave this thread as well, because it is going in a direction that doesn't interest me. However, I few points before I go.

It's not about specific ruleset.

I'm saying "What about Hawkeye, Deadshot, or Usopp?"

If you are talking about what can't be done, then you are talking about a specific ruleset (or at least the baggage of one). Unless you believe it is impossible to make rules that accommodate those characters and ones that are more powerful too.

The thread's premise is that all martials above level 10 must be supernatural.

And this is why I am responding to this thread one more time. This was not the premise of the thread. I am not the OP, but I am the person that brought up this idea. So the ides was somthing I introduced in response to the OP (though I have thought this for a long time).

Now, the level limit is semi-arbitrary. It could be anything really. I chose lvl 10 because that is the point most D&D games end for one reason or another. So, my thought was why not get all your mundane awesomeness in those 10 levels. So you can have your hawkeyes, batmans, etc. in the first 10 levels. Just fill those levels with everything you need to make those characters. And then if you want to play characters more "powerful" you have levels 11-20.

Does that make sense? I am not trying to take anything away. I am suggesting adding on to. In D&D currently (or any edition I can think of), you can't accurately play Heracles or similarly super powerful martials. I wanted to give a path to those types of characters and not have to wait 20 levels to do it.

Also, in this theoretical system, magic / spells would also likely need to be revised too.

 

[FrogReaver]

There is a possibility that I'm being misquoted/misremembered/misunderstood.

I've been trying to point out that full casters' real power is not the damage they can do or the foes they can trap with a well place control spells.

Following so far.

It's the impact they can have on the story, the plot, the world. The evil warlord resides on a fortress on top of a cliff? Fine we'll fly to the top (or something similar), thus bypassing several encounters and traps and fighting the big boss fresh. And this is a petty, facile example. It can be a lot more profound than that.

A story having the protagonists taking a different/harder path to the warlock in a fortress atop a cliff isn’t impacting the plot.

Claiming the wizard can make an easier path isn’t a story or plot issue but a balance issue. IMO of course.

Or take planar travel. In absence of a party wizard to send you to another plane there will always be an NPC or item or ritual that can if it’s important to the plot or story. Which thus means, the wizard simply has an easier time traveling where they want to be, but the plot isn’t really changed.

This is something that needs a lot of thought and care. But it would be cool if martials had supernatural "martiallish" powers that could also impact the plot, perhaps in different ways. But I do agree that this should be limited - they aren't wizards, after all.

I think you’ve identified a good line for supernatural powers. Should martials have plot/story impacting supernatural powers?

I don’t think so. Though, I don’t see wizards as having many/‘if any’ of those either (see above).

But perhaps things like diverting a river,

Too supernatural for many of us.

or causing a great heard of buffalos to stampede over an enemy army ... that could be interesting no?

Provided there’s a herd of befalls around then anyone can do it. If not then it’s either player narrative control (not everyone is good with that) or some kind of befall herd conjuration.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm going to jump in here then leave this thread as well, because it is going in a direction that doesn't interest me. However, I few points before I go.

If you are talking about what can't be done, then you are talking about a specific ruleset (or at least the baggage of one). Unless you believe it is impossible to make rules that accommodate those characters and ones that are more powerful too.

And this is why I am responding to this thread one more time. This was not the premise of the thread. I am not the OP, but I am the person that brought up this idea. So the ides was somthing I introduced in response to the OP (though I have thought this for a long time).

Now, the level limit is semi-arbitrary. It could be anything really. I chose lvl 10 because that is the point most D&D games end for one reason or another. So, my thought was why not get all your mundane awesomeness in those 10 levels. So you can have your hawkeyes, batmans, etc. in the first 10 levels. Just fill those levels with everything you need to make those characters. And then if you want to play characters more "powerful" you have levels 11-20.

Does that make sense? I am not trying to take anything away. I am suggesting adding on to. In D&D currently (or any edition I can think of), you can't accurately play Heracles or similarly super powerful martials. I wanted to give a path to those types of characters and not have to wait 20 levels to do it.

Also, in this theoretical system, magic / spells would also likely need to be revised too.

I think the issue people find with your idea is that it limits heroes to those that are not mundane. Someone referred to it as ‘baby Hercules’. Because if a hero can progress in martial prowess past that mundane point then they never really were mundane to begin with and/or some supernatural power granting event had to occur right at level up (which is also a problem for people)

I think if you do the level split explanation you have to take great care to explain how these issues can be avoided if desired. (Essentially campaign level cap or starting point and why you would want to use those).

 

[Minigiant]

I'm going to jump in here then leave this thread as well, because it is going in a direction that doesn't interest me. However, I few points before I go.

If you are talking about what can't be done, then you are talking about a specific ruleset (or at least the baggage of one). Unless you believe it is impossible to make rules that accommodate those characters and ones that are more powerful too.

And this is why I am responding to this thread one more time. This was not the premise of the thread. I am not the OP, but I am the person that brought up this idea. So the ides was somthing I introduced in response to the OP (though I have thought this for a long time).

Now, the level limit is semi-arbitrary. It could be anything really. I chose lvl 10 because that is the point most D&D games end for one reason or another. So, my thought was why not get all your mundane awesomeness in those 10 levels. So you can have your hawkeyes, batmans, etc. in the first 10 levels. Just fill those levels with everything you need to make those characters. And then if you want to play characters more "powerful" you have levels 11-20.

Does that make sense? I am not trying to take anything away. I am suggesting adding on to. In D&D currently (or any edition I can think of), you can't accurately play Heracles or similarly super powerful martials. I wanted to give a path to those types of characters and not have to wait 20 levels to do it.

Also, in this theoretical system, magic / spells would also likely need to be revised too.

Again.

Why can't I play level 17 Hawkeye, Deadshot, Usopp, Batman, Kenshin, or Cap and stay non-supernatursl like the source material?

 

[FrogReaver]

Again.

Why can't I play level 17 Hawkeye, Deadshot, Usopp, Batman, Kenshin, or Cap and stay non-supernatursl like the source material?

Deadpool is supernatural - regrows limbs.

But to more directly answer your question as I assume you mean it (should mundane heroes grow into more supernatural versions of themselves?) - I think a heroes identity as not supernatural or limited supernatural is directly tied to what makes them be them. If someone wants to play a hero like cap, they may very well desire those supernatural restrictions.

 

[GrimCo]

Again.

Why can't I play level 17 Hawkeye, Deadshot, Usopp, Batman, Kenshin, or Cap and stay non-supernatursl like the source material?

Because of d&d mechanics. Mostly hit points. By the end of tier 2, martials start to become damage sponges. They can take superhuman amount of punishment. Tier 4 martials have 150-200 hp. They can soak up 2-3 adult red dragon breaths and still keep fighting. Commoners and tier 1 pcs are crispy critters after one.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because of d&d mechanics. Mostly hit points. By the end of tier 2, martials start to become damage sponges. They can take superhuman amount of punishment. Tier 4 martials have 150-200 hp. They can soak up 2-3 adult red dragon breaths and still keep fighting. Commoners and tier 1 pcs are crispy critters after one.

That would be convincing if hp=meat.