D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Well then, we have some very fundamental disagreements.

So, it comes down to... at what level do you think a character should be as good as a trained soldier? Where are you setting your bounds? Because different games tackle that question VASTLY differently.

Probably less differently than they tackle the bounds of magic!

 

[Micah Sweet]

You don't need a rule for "why" your PC can do something.

You only need a rule for "what" your PC can do.

You do if you want the players to have a frame of reference.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For 5e, Weapon Mastery is Proficiency + Fighting style + X Mastery Feat

For Skills there is just Expertise.

The issue is cost. TSR, WOTC, and even others like Paizo overvalue and under provide feats to replicate many of the high level Mundanes of Media

See, here is the real problem. According to what you just wrote, that +1 damage and accuracy feat is what you want. Other posters (and myself) think that would be a waste of our time as a feat.

Sure, you can say "give us more mastery feats!" but without knowing what those feats do, it is pointless.

Additionally, Prof + Fighting style + Feat.... is level 1. You want to demonstrate a high level martial character with a something they can accomplish at level 1. Sure, fine, the martial will need even more feats to get multiple of these fighting styles and mastery feats, but there is a factor you aren't considering... very few people will bother.

A low strength, high dex archer build is never going to bother with GWM and PAM. A low dex, high strength two-weapon build is never going to bother with archery feats, and is likely not to bother with one-handed weapon feats. Because the majority of the time... they won't be using those abilities. You could give fighter's every single fighting style, and since most of them are incompatible with each other, mostly this will not raise their power level AT ALL.

 

[Baron Opal II]

... The spellcaster can cast Planeshift NOW, and potentially use the Feywild time shenanigans to their advantage. The martial has to dismiss the idea, because the only way to even get to the Feywild is spend weeks searching for a high level spellcaster to cast the spell for them.

So one group gets to recruit an ally the DM didn't consider, the other doesn't.

Or, the martial group knows to enter the Wyrwood at twilight, and that is a liminal path to the fae court.

Or, no, they don't have access to that since you need a spellcaster. Nothing wrong with that, not every class has access to every option. Nor should they. But, maybe there exist other options that bring up other resources the DM didn't consider.

The fighter may have 120 troops that serve him, a ranger might have a herd of friendly hippogryphs the know about, or the rogue contacts the alchemist inservice to the guild she runs to get the perfect poison for the occasion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They aren't.

But you said that level of power doesn't make sense for a mundane character.

The examples you gave are not what I responded to. You added them afterward.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Make sense to who?

Why can't you dodge a dragon's claw and shoot their eye without being supernatural?

Why must I be supernatural to know ancient Hobgoblin History to solve an optional puzzle?

Why is proficiency in history checks (all that would be required to know ancient Hobgoblin History) be something that only a high level fighter can do? And why isn't it something that the Wizard can't do better (higher Int score)

Dodging a dragon's claw is... having high enough AC. Shooting their eye, well... what do you want that to do? Just deal damage? Then this isn't locked to high level play. Blind the enemy? Okay, now we need to talk balance.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why would we want to define things in a fantasy world using a yardstick that is invisible and meaningless to that world's inhabitants?

Because until we do we aren't allowed to even discuss the possibility changing anything.

Is magic supernatural from the perspective of the people of a fantasy world? No, it isn't. Magic is a skill that anyone can learn by studying the right math. Elves, Genasi, Gnomes... all of them can cast magic. They are also "ordinary people" so...are we going to say that no "ordinary person" can use minor illusion? Then we have presupposed that no Gnome is an ordinary person, which is a bad pre-supposition.

Yet, we have no problem defining magic as supernatural... because it is supernatural from our perspective. Even though it is nothing but a learned skill that many many people just can figure out on their own.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Rather than adding a magic tag to abilities within any of the character classes, it seems we could put a warning somewhere..maybe on the first page of the character creation section of the book in big bold letters..

"Characters created using the following rules are intended to be used as adventurers in a fantasy roleplaying game.

[insert dictionary definitions of fantasy and adventure]

As such characters will often encounter fantastical challenges, the abilities herein will often include fantastical ways to address such challenges..

[insert dictionary definitions of fantasy and adventure]

All player characters should be assumed to be fantastical in one way or another, because they are..

..again..

adventurers in a fantasy roleplaying game.

[insert dictionary definitions of fantasy and adventure]"

Now..would this be insulting to the intelligence of people who were already familiar with the definitions of fantasy and adventure and were already expecting that their characters might be fantastical in some way?

..yes..

Would they wonder why such a reminder was necessary?

..also yes..

Edit: But at least they'd have somewhere to point to anytime someone asks how a PC is able to do something cool when "in the real world" such coolness is impossible.

 

[Kurotowa]

I've been thinking it over the last day. If it were me, and I were doing the settling flavor from scratch and had a fair bit of license to rework mechanics too, here's what I think I'd lay out.

Everyone uses magic. Magic is omnipresent and foundational in a fantasy world, just like everyone on Earth uses technology. The difference is between internal and external magic. Spellcasters use external magic to shape spells that alter the world around them, throwing fireballs and twisting space. Martial warriors use internal magic to enhance themselves, becoming able to punch through walls or parry boulders with a dagger. And some stuff blurs the line, like assassins who can meld with the shadows to slip through cracks.

There's no dichotomy between "magical" and "mundane" because no one and nothing is mundane. Dispel Magic becomes Dispel Enchantment, and Antimagic Field is like an ECM jamming field that shorts out spells without effecting anything else.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Or, the martial group knows to enter the Wyrwood at twilight, and that is a liminal path to the fae court.

Or, no, they don't have access to that since you need a spellcaster. Nothing wrong with that, not every class has access to every option. Nor should they. But, maybe there exist other options that bring up other resources the DM didn't consider.

The fighter may have 120 troops that serve him, a ranger might have a herd of friendly hippogryphs the know about, or the rogue contacts the alchemist inservice to the guild she runs to get the perfect poison for the occasion.

This sounds all pretty, but it misses the entire point.

Party A has a Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and Barbarian: They can travel through a special forest at the right time, have 120 troops that will serve them, a herd of friendly hippogryphs, and know a friendly alchemist.

Party B has a Cleric, Druid, Bard and Wizard: They can travel through a special forest at the right time, have 120 troops that will serve them, a herd of friendly hippogryphs, and know a friendly alchemist.They can teleport anywhere in the world. They can fly to most anywhere in the world. They can plane hop to other dimensions. They can raise the dead. They can send messages across vast distances in an instant.

There is nothing that a pure martial party can accomplish beyond "survive this big chunk of damage" that a caster team or a team with a single caster CANNOT accomplish. But there is so so so much that a pure martial team cannot accomplish. This isn't about everyone being able to do the same things, this is about what can a martial character do to affect the plot that a spellcaster CANNOT accomplish. Hard limit cannot.

And there is currently.... nothing.