TSR The Making and Breaking of Deities & Demigods

Gods, Demigods, & Heroes was a D&D supplement that I suggested to Gary [Gygax] and it was published in 1976. It presented gods and heroes for D&D. In those days there was no google or internet research features and so I had to do a great deal of library research to get the book done. I used the Golden Bough for a great deal of the legendary treatment. I read all the novels of the authors I mentioned in the book. The concept was a first attempt at combining gods into the game and sold well.

Gods, Demigods, & Heroes was a D&D supplement that I suggested to Gary [Gygax] and it was published in 1976. It presented gods and heroes for D&D. In those days there was no google or internet research features and so I had to do a great deal of library research to get the book done. I used the Golden Bough for a great deal of the legendary treatment. I read all the novels of the authors I mentioned in the book. The concept was a first attempt at combining gods into the game and sold well.



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Note from Morrus -- this is the fourth of Jim Ward's series of articles here on EN World! Upcoming articles include TSR's Amazing Accounting Department, and The Origin of Monty Haul!


Naturally, when AD&D came out the idea to update the gods book was given as an assignment to me. Rob Kuntz was supposed to do half of the writing, but was busy with other things and I ended up writing most of it. This time around for the 1980 release of the book there was a lot more known about role-playing and I included those features in the work.

I was a History and English teacher in Prairie Du Chien at the time, with a family of three young boys and a pleasant wife. I wrote all of the material for the book during one summer vacation in 1979.

In those days there wasn't the internet. I had my own reference books from the last time I designed the pantheons and I spent more hours and hours in the library, again taking notes and ordering books from other libraries. I wanted to add more value to the new work, than what was in the first pantheon version.

The hardest section to write was the Cthulhu mythology. I had to read all of the Lovecraft books. There were other writers of that type of genre, like August Derleth, but Gary Gygax and I talked it out and decided to just use the plentiful Lovecraft material. The hard part was that those books are truly scary. I read all of them in three months. For months afterward I had nightmares and constantly looked over my shoulder looking in the shadows for nasty things. Dealing with those dark concepts was a trial for the happy go lucky James M. Ward, but I persevered.

Gary gave me a format to use that was much like a monster manual listing. That was fine with me as it gave me an order and focus for each listing. I was given a thousand pieces of photocopied sheets. I put each one in my nonelectric typewriter and I typed up the deities, monsters, heroes, and other things of the pantheon. In the creation of each pantheon I did the exact same thing. I made a list of the deities. I placed an imagined value on their power and influence. This caused me to list them as greater or lesser deities. For example I had Zeus as a greater god, Artemis was listed as a lesser goddess, Heracles was listed as a demi-god for his half god parent. In the research for all the pantheons I came across creatures and heroes that were added to the pantheon. Then I looked at each character and the legends about them and made up magic statistics on the items that legends reported. I sent each pantheon for Gary to review and generally he liked all of them.

I can remember we had a debate over the hit points of the gods. I wanted the leader of the gods in each pantheon to have 1,000 hit points. Gary wanted them to have 400. His point was that they couldn't be killed on the prime material plane. If any deity were killed in a battle with player characters their spirit of some type would go back to their home plane and reform. There was no arguing with that logic. That discussion caused me to invent the Plane of Concordant Opposition among the planes that Gary put together.

I would like to use this forum to set some small bit of controversy straight from my point of view. When I first started outlining the book, Gary Gygax told me there might be a copyright problem with the Lovecraft and Moorcock sections of the book. Gary gave me the addresses of those two groups and suggested I get permission from them to print those sections of the book. I immediately sent out the two letters and a month later got positive replies back from both groups. They were pleased to get their concepts mention in the book. I foolishly gave those letters to the TSR legal department (I wish I had them to show you now). The book was printed and published in 1980 to wide acclaim. Fans liked the mention of temples and divine magic items. They liked the references to monsters associated with this or that religion.

TSR received a cease and desist order from Chaosium. In 1981 Chaosium printed Cthulhu and Elric set of role-playing games and naturally didn't want a competitor doing the same thing. Please note that I don't blame them a bit. They had contracts with those two groups and were supposed to defend their rights to the trademark. Those two groups should have mentioned to TSR that they were signing contracts with another company. I wouldn't have put those pantheons in the book in that event. There are literally hundreds of other pantheons that could have been included. It is my belief that if TSR had gone to California with those two letters and gone to court, the company would have been allowed to continue publishing. In those days TSR management didn't think they had the money to hire a California lawyer, fly out to California where the case would be judged, and take the case to court. They decided to remove those two sections and continue publishing the book.

I'm happy to report that Michael Moorcock was nice enough to declare in print that he did indeed give TSR and myself permission to write about his works.

Naturally, I wasn't pleased because I had gone through the work of getting permission for those two sections. I immediately offered to write two new sections free of charge to TSR. Management said no. Every year since then, some goofy fan on the message boards claims that TSR stole those two concepts and put them in the book. I don't like being accused of plagiarism. I'm here to say I did my due diligence and didn't get the chance to make the situation better.
 

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Jim Ward

Jim Ward

Drawmij the Wizard

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Finally, I will say that this book inspired my interest in myth, legends, and religion. It served as spring board to investigate other cultures and beliefs. I think that is a good thing :)

It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.



Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.
 

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Rhineglade

Adventurer
Without a doubt, THIS was my absolute favorite rule book from the 1st edition. Of course, as a pre-teen boy, I had to love the pictures of Isis, Loviatar, Aphrodite, etc. Seeing the gods of various mythologies represented in game terms was fascinating to me and helped to foster my love of mythology to this day.
 

dave2008

Legend
It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

I think that is too high standard. Accuracy is nearly impossible in current religions, not to mention dead ones. What is accurate to one practitioner of a faith and be false and blasphemy to another of the same faith. Accuracy is in the I of the beholder.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Again, I think accuracy, or complete accuracy, is to high a standard. I would go for intent and inspiration.

Also, I will clarify that the inaccuracies are your opinion, not fact. Now, of course we have a lot more information than James had (despite the 5 years of research), and given how subjective myths, legends, and religions are - I would find it highly likely that a game supplement would have some inaccuracies. To claim 100% accuracy is the place of faith and religion, not a RPG supplement.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.
So is the bible to Christians, that's why we got the D&D satanic scare in the US. What is your point?

Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.

Again that is to strict of a standard - someone is always sensitive when it comes to religion. I personally don't find it sensitive to discuss religion, in fact I enjoy it. So is it okay for me to make a RPG product that involves RW religions?

Ugh, I am regretting this response. I don't see continuing this conversation going well and I get the feeling that this subject is too sensitive for you. Maybe you should take your own advice. I think it is perhaps the best approach in this context. The internet is not the best conduit for sensitivity.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.



Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.

This is the impossible standard that has wormed its way into some segments of the gaming population. What it fails to recognize is that pretty much all RPG playing with any kind of reality-inspired world building is going run afoul of them. And yes, that includes pseudo-medieval role playing games based around Europe. Include anything and there will be some nitpicker complaining. This is true even if someone incorporating the cultural elements is an insider because not all insider perspectives will agree on the significance of things within their own culture.

In fact, I'd even say that the inclusion of imaginative or even modern elements guarantees inaccuracy because it will change the context of everything else. And, as a hobby, we need to acknowledge there needs to be a balance between modern political sensitivities and the glosses and abstractions necessary to incorporate our inspirations into our gaming without bogging ourselves down. We need to start respecting serious, good faith efforts and directing our ire at grossly negligent and bad faith efforts.
 

Never had a copy of Deities & Demigods. We borrowed a copy from the library back in the day (oddly being one of the only D&D hardcovers they had that wasn't marked as missing, likely stolen, other than the Dragon magazine issues), but it wasn’t until it was, ahem, reincarnated as Legends & Lore that I purchased it. Not too long ago, I did come across an original printing at Half-Price Books, but the asking value was more than I was willing to spend on a book just for the Cthulhu and Melnibonean sections. The collectors' impulse only goes so far.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
I think that is too high standard.

To avoid falsehoods is a reasonable standard.

For example, the Norse mythos.

Deities & Demigods makes many false statements.

"Balder (God of Beauty)"
• Baldr is a vættr, an animistic nature being, not a polytheistic god.
• Baldr has nothing to do with being worshiped, nor being worshiped for his ‘beauty’.
• Baldr is daylight. Literal daylight. The same daylight streams thru our windows.
• Daylight is beautiful.
• Daylight reveals truth.
• Daylight brings new life.
• Daylight brings new hope − especially in northerly dark winters.

"Valkyries. These warrior maidens ride pegasi."
• Since when has any Norse text ever mentioned the word ‘pesasi’? Certainly not in relation to the valkyrjur.

"Thor. Chaotic Good."
• Þórr literally is social order. If anything he is Lawful Neutral.
• Norwegian Norse view him as rescuing humans, so at least here, Lawful Good (with hints of Paladin smiting) seems fair.

"Odin. Neutral Good."
• Óðinn is a Danish thing, Freyr is a Swedish thing, and Þórr is a Norwegian thing.
• In the Norwegian version of Óðinn, he is treacherous, probably Evil.
• Óðinn is literally cosmic order, astronomical cycles, seasonal cycles, etcetera.
• Probably Lawful Neutral, but again too treacherous. Neutral at best, probably Neutral Evil.

"Norns. three."
• There are many nornir.
• The three jǫtnar nornir are more about the fate of the cosmos, like when Ragnarǫk happens.
• But when it comes to the lives of human individuals, the alfar nornir are way more important.
• The jǫtnar Nornir are called Neutral, and probably fair enough, cruel inscrutable fate
• but a Norse tradition views these Nornir dooming the æsir in Ragnarǫk in order to protect humanity from them

Frey (sunshine and the elves)
• ok but peripheral
• Freyr is specifically the natural phenomenon of sex
• In addition to sexuality, Freyr connotes wealth (fertility) and peace (good relationships)

And so on. I can continue at length about the many falsifications in the Deities & Demigods.

It isnt just that the Deities & Demigods is wrong, it is the book is wrong about some of the most central concepts that matter to these cultures. It is misappropriation.

I am just giving examples pertaining to Norse spiritual heritages.

At the same time, I am familiar with many religions because of my anthropology, and because of friends who adhere to those religions.

The Deities & Demigods is false about other peoples sacred beliefs.
 

Dausuul

Legend
So is the bible to Christians, that's why we got the D&D satanic scare in the US. What is your point?
I won't speak for Yaarel, and I know this is treading close to the religion line; but I think it's pretty relevant that while D&D draws heavily on Biblical themes, it carefully avoids any direct representation of the Jewish or Christian religions. Deities & Demigods does not have a "Judeo-Christian Mythos" chapter. We are not told Moses's cleric level; we do not know if the Angel of the Lord is a planetar or a solar; we do not have a hit point total for Jesus.

It's fair to ask that similar respect be given to other real-world belief systems.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
The Deities & Demigods is false about other peoples sacred beliefs.


You mean D&D isn't real!? Oh my goodness, what will I do now?!

*Edit* OK, that is a bit hyperbolic, but I guess my point is that we have people who believe in the Jedi religion as devoutly as people believe in their Christian, Pagan, Muslim, etc religions. So does that mean we can't have games about Star Wars? Because let's be real, the only difference between religions is how long people have been believing them. There is no proof any one religion is true or not, whether it's Christianity or Jedi or anything in between, so you can't really say "Well, these religions deserve special treatment, but not those over there."
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I won't speak for Yaarel, and I know this is treading close to the religion line; but I think it's pretty relevant that while D&D draws heavily on Biblical themes, it carefully avoids any direct representation of the Jewish or Christian religions. Deities & Demigods does not have a "Judeo-Christian Mythos" chapter. We are not told Moses's cleric level; we do not know if the Angel of the Lord is a planetar or a solar; we do not have a hit point total for Jesus.

It's fair to ask that similar respect be given to other real-world belief systems.

Stats for Satan (the Christian version) were in a 1979 Dragon Magazine (#28). Angles were covered in #35. And Testament from Green Ronin does exactly what you're saying it does (statting out Biblical NPC)s
 
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Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Generally, cultures are flattered when outsiders take an interest in them. But when outsiders start saying stuff that is wrong, and then silencing those cultures when they are trying to clarify something. It comes across as less than flattering.



Probably the main problem with the representation of Native American tribes is how Deities & Demigods mishmashes them together. It is sorta equivalent to saying Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are all the same.

The Native tribes are separate nations with separate belief systems. Lots of cognate concepts, but different meanings in different cultures. While they are mainly animistic, they evolve differently. Some tribes are strict animists, in which case the word ‘god’ is wrong. Some are monotheistic animists. Other tribes are polytheistic animists. The mishmash of disparate tribes does little to authentically represent these tribes.

Omission of certain parts of the world also distorts presentation. I notice the absence of African animisms, Australian Aborigines, the ‘shaman’ proper of north Asia, Russian folkbeliefs, Tibetan Buddhism. Not that D&D needs an encyclopedia, but a list of reallife belief systems of reallife cultures, does well to be diplomatic. Not all of Africa is Egypt.
 

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