The mandalorian [Spoilers]

[Imaculata]

You really haven't understood the show at all, have you?

I really can't be bothered to spend more time if you so clearly refuse to accept the show for what it is. A and B and C and D will keep happening because that's what the show is. You come across as someone who would want to like Star Trek, except maybe not have the ship go off all by itself vulnerable and all. Maybe the Enterprise could be escorted by a dozen support ships to avoid ambushes, like a "realistic" space navy? And of course the Captain would never leave the ship on away missions, right?

I really have no other suggestion than maybe not watch anymore? Have a nice day.

Look, I don't have a problem with the Mandalorian going off on his own and doing bountyhunting jobs. I get that, that is fine. It is not the show's premise I have an issue with. It's the writing.

Going back to my Firefly example, that is exactly what Firefly was as well. Every episode is another job. A heist, a theft, a delivery, and something goes wrong. Because otherwise you don't have an episode. But contrary to the Mandalorian, in Firefly the crew actually learned from past mistakes. They took precautions when dealing with untrustworthy folk. The writing was better. If you've never watched Firefly before, you should definitely watch the episode "Trash" and compare it with episode 6 of the Mandalorian. Both are heists in a western setting, but Firefly plays out quite more clever. Better writers.

Heck, even Star Trek was way better than that (especially TNG). Keep in mind, the Enterprise wasn't a warship. The mission statement is given at the start of every episode. So that is an unfair comparison. Most of the conflict in Star Trek didn't revolve around ambushes, that was not what the show was about. Going on away missions was literally their job. But again, I repeat, the concept of the Mandalorian taking jobs is not my critique of the show. So stop moving the goalposts yourself, please.

What we have in this show is two problems:

-Sloppy writing. The Mandalorian as a character is undermined by how the episodes are written, making him seem incompetent. He does not learn from past mistakes and never outwits the audience.
-None of the episodes build on each other to create a larger narrative or create a compelling character arc. Each episode feels like a side quest.

 

[Imaculata]

Interesting. What stories would you tell given your above requirements? Especially if you have a barely holding together ship, no safe harbor, no money, and no allies tgat can assist. How does one manage to adhere to your strict rules yet survive and still have an engaging tale?

When you play RPGs, do you follow your own rules?

Well, let me answer your last question first. When I write adventures for D&D, yes I do follow these rules. I make sure to not make the characters in my adventures seem incompetent (unless they are). I think about what they know and what the players know. I also try to outwit the players, by throwing unexpected twists and turns into the plot, and I throw in the occasional red herring. The players are like the audience of a tv show, only they also participate in the story. I have to think about what their expectations may be, and how I might surprise them. I also have to think about how all the other characters in the world may logically act, and how I can steer that towards an interesting plot development. For example, if a character intends to betray the players, I think about why they might do so, and how they plan to get away with it. I also think about wether the players may see the betrayal coming, and how I can prevent them from catching on.

As to your first question, I think the lack of allies is the show's first problem. Mando isn't a very compelling character on his own, because we never see his face and he does not talk a whole lot. Giving him a crew would make the show more interesting and also provide him with a way to put Baby Yoda with someone he can trust. It would also allow for more character development I think.

The ship barely holding together and a lack of money are an easy plot device for him to take risky jobs. This is pretty much how Firefly worked. I'm not saying this should be another Firefly clone, but I don't see either as a problem for the plot. If anything, it should help the plot.

No safe harbor does not have to be an issue, if the goal of the show is to keep Baby Yoda in his trust. But the lack of a crew to temporarily take care of Baby Yoda, means he can never go do a job without abandoning the child and thus putting its life in danger. So again, we need more characters in his show.

I think the real issue is that we haven't seen Mandalorian take any active steps to deal with the dozens of bountyhunters on his trail. He could attempt to throw off their scent; Send them to the wrong end of the galaxy. Another thing he could do is make some more allies and have them join his crew. That will give him someone to talk to whose face we can actually see.
Whenever a job requires him to work together with untrustworthy folk, he should take precautions to deal with any inevitable betrayal. I would expect his ship to have overrides and he would have allies to help him guard his ship.
Likewise, his team of scoundrels shouldn't attempt to kill him just because they can. If working together with the Mandalorian is in their best interest, then it doesn't make sense for them to betray him mid mission and endanger the success of said mission. You need proper motivation for your villains. This heist wasn't about money, it was about getting one prisoner out. So either make the heist about something of monetary value, or have the Mandalorian come across a complication on board the ship that derails the original plan. This is how a heist story is supposed to work: The main characters make a plan, and something unforeseen goes wrong, and then they improvise. That is what I would like to see in such an episode. Something unexpected. The betrayal was totally expected.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Well, let me answer your last question first. When I write adventures for D&D, yes I do follow these rules. I make sure to not make the characters in my adventures seem incompetent (unless they are). I think about what they know and what the players know. I also try to outwit the players, by throwing unexpected twists and turns into the plot, and I throw in the occasional red herring. The players are like the audience of a tv show, only they also participate in the story. I have to think about what their expectations may be, and how I might surprise them. I also have to think about how all the other characters in the world may logically act, and how I can steer that towards an interesting plot development. For example, if a character intends to betray the players, I think about why they might do so, and how they plan to get away with it. I also think about wether the players may see the betrayal coming, and how I can prevent them from catching on.

As to your first question, I think the lack of allies is the show's first problem. Mando isn't a very compelling character on his own, because we never see his face and he does not talk a whole lot. Giving him a crew would make the show more interesting and also provide him with a way to put Baby Yoda with someone he can trust. It would also allow for more character development I think.

The ship barely holding together and a lack of money are an easy plot device for him to take risky jobs. This is pretty much how Firefly worked. I'm not saying this should be another Firefly clone, but I don't see either as a problem for the plot. If anything, it should help the plot.

No safe harbor does not have to be an issue, if the goal of the show is to keep Baby Yoda in his trust. But the lack of a crew to temporarily take care of Baby Yoda, means he can never go do a job without abandoning the child and thus putting its life in danger. So again, we need more characters in his show.

I think the real issue is that we haven't seen Mandalorian take any active steps to deal with the dozens of bountyhunters on his trail. He could attempt to throw off their scent; Send them to the wrong end of the galaxy. Another thing he could do is make some more allies and have them join his crew. That will give him someone to talk to whose face we can actually see.
Whenever a job requires him to work together with untrustworthy folk, he should take precautions to deal with any inevitable betrayal. I would expect his ship to have overrides and he would have allies to help him guard his ship.
Likewise, his team of scoundrels shouldn't attempt to kill him just because they can. If working together with the Mandalorian is in their best interest, then it doesn't make sense for them to betray him mid mission and endanger the success of said mission. You need proper motivation for your villains. This heist wasn't about money, it was about getting one prisoner out. So either make the heist about something of monetary value, or have the Mandalorian come across a complication on board the ship that derails the original plan. This is how a heist story is supposed to work: The main characters make a plan, and something unforeseen goes wrong, and then they improvise. That is what I would like to see in such an episode. Something unexpected. The betrayal was totally expected.

I'm sorry, but this fundamentally reads as you being upset that the Mandalorian isn't Firefly. That sounds a bit snarky, but it's not. You seem to want a different set of foundational tropes for this show. You complain about the lack of a crew, but the Mandalorian being a loner who's picked up a ward is a foundation trope of this show (Lone Wolf and Cub). You complain about the Mandalorian being trusting and not ruthless enough, but that's a (developing) foundational trope of the show -- the former black hat wanting to do better but still stuck in a black hat world (Unforgiven, Driver, etc.). You want to see the Mandalorian's face to make the character more compelling, but that's the opposite of the very premise of the show.

I think you may want to accept that the foundation tropes of this show do not align with things you find enjoyable. That's fine -- there are plenty of shows I don't like. I don't usually spend a lot of time complaining about them, though.

 

[Maxperson]

You guys really need to read (watch) up on your sparse, stark, minimal (mythological, episodic) Westerns. You come across as simply uninformed with your focus on realism-related issues in a show so very clearly inspired by tales not concerned about that.

I guess you could also simply leave the thread and accept the show isn't for you, but we all know that's not gonna happen

Dude. I've seen many westerns where the protagonist isn't stupid. Expecting a protagonist that can use his head moderately well isn't uninformed.

 

[Imaculata]

I'm sorry, but this fundamentally reads as you being upset that the Mandalorian isn't Firefly. That sounds a bit snarky, but it's not.

I make a lot of comparisons with Firefly, because both are scifi shows in a western setting, with a heavy emphasys on heists and other illegal jobs. The show does not have to be like Firefly, but it could do with some of its better plotting, and with more characters.

You seem to want a different set of foundational tropes for this show. You complain about the lack of a crew, but the Mandalorian being a loner who's picked up a ward is a foundation trope of this show (Lone Wolf and Cub).

That I do not have a problem with. I have a problem with the way the episodes are written.

You complain about the Mandalorian being trusting and not ruthless enough, but that's a (developing) foundational trope of the show -- the former black hat wanting to do better but still stuck in a black hat world (Unforgiven, Driver, etc.).

That was how he was presented in the very first episode. I don't think he has any reason to trust anyone. Certainly not after every betrayal in every episode. Why did he start off seemingly competent, and slowly becomes less so?

You want to see the Mandalorian's face to make the character more compelling, but that's the opposite of the very premise of the show.

I don't want to see his face, but I am starting to see the limitations of the premise. I think the show needs more main characters whose faces we do see, or it just won't work.

I think you may want to accept that the foundation tropes of this show do not align with things you find enjoyable. That's fine -- there are plenty of shows I don't like. I don't usually spend a lot of time complaining about them, though.

It is not the tropes that I take issue with, it is the writing. A show like this needs to be able to surprise the audience. Not just by how the various heists go wrong, but also with how the main character deals with those obstacles. We have not seen any surprising twists up till now, apart from Baby Yoda's reveal.

Another problem is a lack of character development and overarching narrative. Every episode feels like a side quest. The show needs a main plot that strings these episodes together. The show doesn't even have a main villain. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer introduced some sort of main threat or big bad halfway into each season. This show needs to be more than just one side quest after the other or it will quickly lose people's interest.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Dude. I've seen many westerns where the protagonist isn't stupid. Expecting a protagonist that can use his head moderately well isn't uninformed.

You must watch a different show than I. You said above that Mando has trusted many underworld figures. I fail to see where that's happened. He's had to work with them, sure, but trust? I didn't see any blind trust anywhere. He didn't trust the Client. He didn't trust Greef. He didn't trust that bounty hunter on Tatooine. He didn't trust this last crew. He had to work with all of them, because that's where he was and it was the way through that didn't involve wanton murder.

Honestly, I think that people might be missing the subtle clues that the Mandalorian really tries to avoid killing outside of a few exceptions: stormtroopers, droids, and Jawas. He takes pains to NOT be a murder-hobo, up to an including not killing people who's betrayed him. He'll kill, without hesitation, in a firefight or if left no other options, but he works to avoid that. It's why he didn't go immediately for the kill against the Republic ex-commando, or even the pirates on that world, why he brought bounties in alive (and has a carbonite freezer on his ship), and why he chose to take the extra step of imprisoning the last crew instead of killing them. He's trying to do better than he used to, another trope from Westerns.

 

[Maxperson]

Heck, even Star Trek was way better than that (especially TNG). Keep in mind, the Enterprise wasn't a warship. The mission statement is given at the start of every episode. So that is an unfair comparison. Most of the conflict in Star Trek didn't revolve around ambushes, that was not what the show was about. Going on away missions was literally their job. But again, I repeat, the concept of the Mandalorian taking jobs is not my critique of the show. So stop moving the goalposts yourself, please.

I agreed with everything in this last post, except that the Enterprise wasn't a warship. It was literally a heavy cruiser and flagship of the fleet. It's mission was one of peace and exploration, but it was also designed as a warship to be able to defend itself if need be.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I make a lot of comparisons with Firefly, because both are scifi shows in a western setting, with a heavy emphasys on heists and other illegal jobs. The show does not have to be like Firefly, but it could do with some of its better plotting, and with more characters.



That I do not have a problem with. I have a problem with the way the episodes are written.

With respect, the episodes are written based on those tropes and do a good job with them. Your complaints aren't about writing, per se, but about plotting, and specifically the plotting based on those tropes.

That was how he was presented in the very first episode. I don't think he has any reason to trust anyone. Certainly not after every betrayal in every episode. Why did he start off seemingly competent, and slowly becomes less so?

The first episode, where he captures targets alive, treats well with strangers and shows gratitude, and refuses to allow a fellow bounty hunter to kill his target even when he'd still be paid? Yes, horribly ruthless.

And, again, there's this "trust" argument. Don't see it. I see it as desperation requiring you to make the best choice out of a list of bad ones while adhering to your principles. I mean, clearly the Mandalorion could just start robbing people and do okay, but that's against the code (and the Way). Instead, he looks for work and has to take jobs where things aren't perfect or great. He has to work with bad people. That's not trust, and he seems to do okay for the most part.

I don't want to see his face, but I am starting to see the limitations of the premise. I think the show needs more main characters whose faces we do see, or it just won't work.

Completely disagree. I'm loving the level of acting that it being portrayed without a face. It's impressive. You may be coming to the end of your enjoyment, but, to borrow a phrase, I'm coming to a middle.

It is not the tropes that I take issue with, it is the writing. A show like this needs to be able to surprise the audience. Not just by how the various heists go wrong, but also with how the main character deals with those obstacles. We have not seen any surprising twists up till now, apart from Baby Yoda's reveal.

Huh. So, you don't like the episodes writing because... it doesn't surprise you? Yet, you complain it doesn't align to your expectations. I find trying to score at both ends of the field at the same time to be a little daunting.

Another problem is a lack of character development and overarching narrative. Every episode feels like a side quest. The show needs a main plot that strings these episodes together. The show doesn't even have a main villain. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer introduced some sort of main threat or big bad halfway into each season. This show needs to be more than just one side quest after the other or it will quickly lose people's interest.

I think the character development may be a little too subtle for you, then. We've discovered that the Mandalorian has serious doubts about his faith. We've discovered that the Mandalorian was a ruthless killer but is no longer. We've discovered that the Mandalorion is pretty much ready to risk everything over a baby Yoda. If you can't tell where these beats came from, you might have missed a few things in the writing.

 

[Maxperson]

You must watch a different show than I. You said above that Mando has trusted many underworld figures. I fail to see where that's happened. He's had to work with them, sure, but trust? I didn't see any blind trust anywhere. He didn't trust the Client. He didn't trust Greef. He didn't trust that bounty hunter on Tatooine. He didn't trust this last crew. He had to work with all of them, because that's where he was and it was the way through that didn't involve wanton murder.

He get caught "off guard" by these underworld people so often it's not even funny. That requires a level of trust that he shouldn't be giving.

Honestly, I think that people might be missing the subtle clues that the Mandalorian really tries to avoid killing outside of a few exceptions: stormtroopers, droids, and Jawas.

You forgot the people in the bar in episode one, the bounty hunters he killed after rescuing baby Yoda, the attackers in episode 4, the guy who hired him in episode 5(he knew what would happen) and the Mando he tried to kill in episode 3.

He didn't really try very hard to avoid killing people who were trying to kill him until this last episode, which is why it made very little sense.

 

[Imaculata]

With respect, the episodes are written based on those tropes and do a good job with them. Your complaints aren't about writing, per se, but about plotting, and specifically the plotting based on those tropes.

Isn't plotting, the writing?

The first episode, where he captures targets alive, treats well with strangers and shows gratitude, and refuses to allow a fellow bounty hunter to kill his target even when he'd still be paid? Yes, horribly ruthless.

He cuts a bountyhunter in two by closing a door on him. Then he freezes his target in carbonite. He came across as pretty cold and ruthless to me. From that one scene, I got the impression that he was a pretty competent and ruthless bountyhunter. It was a good scene to start a show.

Huh. So, you don't like the episodes writing because... it doesn't surprise you? Yet, you complain it doesn't align to your expectations. I find trying to score at both ends of the field at the same time to be a little daunting.

Do not confuse a lack of a surprising plot in each episode, with the show as a whole not meeting expectations. Those are two very different things. To be fair, there are areas where the show DOES meet expectations. It has the mood of Star Wars, and the looks. It uses a lot of practical effects and looks great. But I want more than that. Perhaps other shows of the last few years have raised the bar for me. I expect better writing and I expect to be surprised. If I know what is going to happen in an episode, there is no excitement for me. Likewise, I don't want to be underwhelmed by how the main character overcomes the obstacles that are thrown at him each episode. When Mando has to deal with an AT-ST and is severely outgunned and outmanned, I hope to see a clever trick by which he beats the odds. That is not what I got, and I was disappointed. And thats just an example from one episode. That is not to say that there aren't things to like in each episode, but those things are mostly visual.

I think the character development may be a little too subtle for you, then. We've discovered that the Mandalorian has serious doubts about his faith. We've discovered that the Mandalorian was a ruthless killer but is no longer. We've discovered that the Mandalorion is pretty much ready to risk everything over a baby Yoda. If you can't tell where these beats came from, you might have missed a few things in the writing.

I didn't say I didn't notice those beats, but they are not enough character development for me. Plus there is only so much reflection you can get out of a camera zooming in on an emotionless helmet. I am starting to see the cracks, and how some of the worries people expressed at the start of the show are coming to the surface.

I agreed with everything in this last post, except that the Enterprise wasn't a warship. It was literally a heavy cruiser and flagship of the fleet. It's mission was one of peace and exploration, but it was also designed as a warship to be able to defend itself if need be.

I stand corrected.

It has been a long time since I watched TNG. Regarding an earlier point (and I think you will agree with me), the plots of the show did not revolve around the characters making stupid decisions (at least not as I remember it). I remember mostly a lot of moral complications that had to be solved with reason. Characters with different perspectives discussing how to proceed and having arguments. Not characters walking into obvious traps that they should have seen coming.