D&D 4E The math behind power attack and why it needs to be redone in 4e

[Ahglock]

You know what I have noticed. My posts have all of the evidence showing what is wrong with power attack, they challenge the arguements and then they offer suggestions that stay true to what power attack is. Yet, for some reason, the posts challenging these points for the last page and a half are avoiding everything I have posted. If you want to comment or challenge these points, start with my posts. I am arguing against power attack for far more than just its minus to hit hurts its damage. Power attack is awful on many levels and it barely works in optimum builds and it is all supported in the posts on here that I made, or supporters made connected with those posts. So please read them, reply to them if you don't agree. Present your evidence or new math and keep it respectful and intelligent.

But stop ignoring the points and come in here and say you think power attack is fine and we are wrong without ANY evidence to back you up.

Next person that wants to challenge our power attack, please show us optimum builds at level 5, 10, 15, 20 and it must be compared to a CL of equal level. Show us power attack's value please.

Really where is the sliding scale in your options?

We are saying and your own dang math shows it that power attack as is can and frequently does improve damage. Can it be better? Sure, we aren't arguing that. We are arguing about removing the sliding scale because that is what makes power attack a versatile and fun tool.

Oh and try being a bit less condescending and I may respond to more of your posts.

 

[Someone]

Really?

I never read it that way.

Well, I'm trusting the designer there, according to him (though I don't have the link available) the feat was designed with strong two weapon users in mind.

And the argument that it is better for the rapier wielding halfing is also somewhat false

I don't know what you mean by false, but the math shows that attacks with large attack bonuses and low average damage are those who (i'm trying to choose words carefully here) gain an average and total damage increase more often when power attacking. On the contrary, when your average damage is large enough the number of times where average damage increases with PA is much more limited, mainly when the opponent's AC is your attack bonus +1 or lower. Of course, you still have the chance to deal more damage than you normally would do, since you can still hit, but on the long run you'll deal less.

Again, notice that this doesn't automatically make the feat a bad one; others argue so, but this isn't my point of contention. To make my point clearer, if you already do a lot of damage, you should reserve your power attacks to situations where a) the target's AC is abismally low (like oozes, unarmored mooks, paralyzed foes or unattended objects) b) You really, really need that extra damage right now, or c) you are roleplaying a reckless character and don't mind punishing yourself mechanically.

However, the rapier wielding halfling will find himself in much many situations where he'll benefit much more from PA. Indeed, if he deals, say, 1d4+1(str)+1d6 (flaming) damage, which totals an average of 7 per hit unless I'm mistaken, he should be power attacking (single attack) any time the opponent's AC equals his attack bonus +12, unless the opponent is already so badly wounded that a single weak hit will drop him, since he'll be raising both his average damage per hit and his next attack's total damage.

 

[Najo]

Really where is the sliding scale in your options?

We are saying and your own dang math shows it that power attack as is can and frequently does improve damage. Can it be better? Sure, we aren't arguing that. We are arguing about removing the sliding scale because that is what makes power attack a versatile and fun tool.

Oh and try being a bit less condescending and I may respond to more of your posts.

I'm not being condescending, just direct. Web posts lack empathy, so it easy to misunderstand intent sometimes. I apologize for any uninentional rude remarks on my part.

My math shows that at the cost of added random attacks, you get small boosts in damage at certain points, but only if you can identify those points during play. The cost of power attack is the time it wastes doing that. If you don't find those points though, and going off gut on power attack you are a) likely going to loss damage and b) going to miss.

If power attack is working by adding dmage and not missing regularly, then you likely are fighting mobs 4 levels below you and picking on the weak ones at that.

 

[Dracorat]

That is a statement about a person, not an argument. It is personal. It looks more like an attack than like an argument from where I'm standing.

Cheers, -- N

Actually, it's a statement about where I thought someone stands.

If a person is not allowed to point out that they feel someone else is in the wrong, it's quite a sad state of affairs these days.

I did not call him names, I only stated that I believe (and I do) that he is misguided. He wants some sample characters, so I'll spend some time getting some. Since this is a "I want the prime example" type request I'll completely power game them, but core sources only. That's my goal for today.

 

[Najo]

Actually, it's a statement about where I thought someone stands.

If a person is not allowed to point out that they feel someone else is in the wrong, it's quite a sad state of affairs these days.

I did not call him names, I only stated that I believe (and I do) that he is misguided. He wants some sample characters, so I'll spend some time getting some. Since this is a "I want the prime example" type request I'll completely power game them, but core sources only. That's my goal for today.

Lets keep things friendly. I understand you feel my opinion on these matters is misguided. You should try out for my contest

 

[Dracorat]

Here you go, for example purposes. 28-pt-buy and these stats are not-enraged - Enjoy:

Name: Blarmey P'wer of Tack
Race: Half-orc
Player: PLAYER
Classes: Bard 2, Barbarian 8, Silver Dragon Disciple 10
Hit Points: 147
Experience: 190000 / 210000
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Vision: Darkvision (60')
Speed: Walk 40 ft., Fly 30 ft.
Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Orc

Stat Score Mod
STR 38 (+14)
DEX 10 (+0)
CON 12 (+1)
INT 16 (+3)
WIS 8 (-1)
CHA 14 (+2)

-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill Total Rnk Stat Msc
Appraise 3 0.0 3 0
Balance 7 8.0 0 -1
Bluff 2 0.0 2 0
Climb 20 7.0 14 -1
Concentration 19 18.0 1 0
Craft (Untrained) 3 0.0 3 0
Diplomacy 2 0.0 2 0
Disguise 2 0.0 2 0
Escape Artist 17 18.0 0 -1
Forgery 3 0.0 3 0
Gather Information 2 0.0 2 0
Heal -1 0.0 -1 0
Hide -1 0.0 0 -1
Intimidate 8 6.0 2 0
Jump 20 3.0 14 3
Knowledge (Arcana) 11 8.0 3 0
Listen 10 11.0 -1 0
Move Silently -1 0.0 0 -1
Ride 0 0.0 0 0
Search 3 0.0 3 0
Sense Motive -1 0.0 -1 0
Spellcraft 9 4.0 3 2
Spot -1 0.0 -1 0
Survival 2 3.0 -1 0
Swim 19 7.0 14 -2
Tumble 3 4.0 0 -1
Use Magic Device 6 4.0 2 0
Use Rope 0 0.0 0 0


-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Improved Critical (Scythe)
When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.

Armor Proficiency (Light)
When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to

Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble checks.


-------------------- Special Abilities ---------------------
Bardic knowledge (+5)
Bardic music 2/day
Bonuses when enraged (STR +4, CON +4, Will +2, AC -2, HP 40)
Cone of Cold (6d8 ~ DC 21)
Immune to Cold
Immune to Paralysis
Immune to Sleep
Improved Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked except by a rogue of 12 level)
May wear light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Orc Blood
Rage (Ex) 3 times/day (6 rounds)
Trap Sense (Ex) +2
Wings (Ex)


------------------------ Templates -------------------------


-------------------------- Combat --------------------------

Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 24 / 10 / 24

Initiative: +4
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Melee tohit: +30/+25/+20/+15
Ranged tohit: +16/+11/+6/+1

Fortitude: +14
Reflex: +8
Will: +11

Unarmed attack:
to hit: +30/+25/+20/+15
damage: 1d3+14
critical: 20/x2

Bite:
to hit: +30
damage: 1d6+14
critical: 20/x2

Claw:
to hit: +25/+25
damage: 1d4+7
critical: 20/x2

Scythe +5:
to hit: +36/+31/+26/+21
damage: 2d4+26
critical: 19-20/x4

Armor Spikes:
to hit: +30/+25/+20/+15
damage: 1d6+14
critical: 20/x2
special properties: deals extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack
--------------------- Special Abilities --------------------


------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name QTY LBS
Breastplate +5 (Mithral/Armor Spikes) 1 25lbs
Special: 30hp/inch and 15 hardness, Spiked
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +5 1 0lbs
Special: (Gauntlets), Enhancement bonus to ability STR|+5
Scythe +5 1 10lbs
Armor Spikes 1 0lbs
Special: deals extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack

Total weight caried:
Current load: Light

Encumbrance
Light: 1600
Medium: 3200
Heavy: 4800


--------------------------- Magic --------------------------



Bard Spells

SPELLBOOKNAME0


Level 0
Dancing Lights (Evocation)Saves: None DC: 12 Casting: 1 standard actionDuration: 2 minute [D] Range: Medium

(120 ft.) Components: V, SSR: No Effect: Creates torches or other lights. Target: Up to four lights, all

within a 10- ft.-radius area Ghost Sound (Illusion)Saves: Will disbelief (if interacted with) DC: 12 Casting: 1

standard actionDuration: 2 rounds [D] Range: Close (30 ft.) Components: V, S, MSR: No Effect: Figment sounds.

Target: Illusory sounds Know Direction (Divination)Saves: None DC: 12 Casting: 1 standard actionDuration:

Instantaneous Range: Personal Components: V, SSR: No Effect: You discern north. Target: You Light

(Evocation)Saves: None DC: 12 Casting: 1 standard actionDuration: 20 minutes [D] Range: Touch Components: V,

M/DFSR: No Effect: Object shines like a torch. Target: Object touched Prestidigitation (Universal)Saves: See

text DC: 12 Casting: 1 standard actionDuration: 1 hour Range: 10 ft. Components: V, SSR: No Effect:

Performs minor tricks. Target: See text


Level 1
Cure Light Wounds (Conjuration)
Saves: Will half (harmless); see text
DC: 13
Casting: 1 standard action
Duration: Instantaneous Range: Touch
Components: V, SSR: Yes (harmless); see text
Effect: Cures 1d8+2 damage.
Target: Creature touched

Feather Fall (Transmutation)
Saves: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (object)
DC: 13
Casting: 1 free action
Duration: Until landing or 2 rounds
Range: Close (30 ft.)
Components: VSR: Yes (object)
Effect: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Target: 2 Medium or smaller freefalling objects or creatures, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart












------------------------ Description -----------------------
Height: 0' 0" Weight: 0 lbs. Gender: Male
Eyes: Hair: , Skin:
Dominant Hand: Right Quirks: ,
Speech style: Quotable: </text>

Full Description
DESCRIPTION

Background

 

[utopia27]

basic mechanics question

Basic mechanics question: Frenzied berserker 'supreme power attack' ability - how does it work with a 2-handed weapon? is the power attack ability doubled (as for either 2-handed weapons OR for supreme power attack) or is it quadrupled (which seems a bit over-the-top)?

So far I'm working a hasted elfen courtsword-wielding frenzied berserker. I'm also looking at a dual-scimitar weilding frenzied berserker and tempest. Which one works better depends on the answer to the lead-in question...

 

[utopia27]

Basic mechanics question: Frenzied berserker 'supreme power attack' ability - how does it work with a 2-handed weapon? is the power attack ability doubled (as for either 2-handed weapons OR for supreme power attack) or is it quadrupled (which seems a bit over-the-top)?

So far I'm working a hasted elfen courtsword-wielding frenzied berserker. I'm also looking at a dual-scimitar weilding frenzied berserker and tempest. Which one works better depends on the answer to the lead-in question...

err... scratch that. I went back and read the description carefully. The correct answer is 4:1, which does seem over the top.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

err... scratch that. I went back and read the description carefully. The correct answer is 4:1, which does seem over the top.

Shouldn't that be tripled? That's the way it usually works in D&D.

 

[glass]

Shouldn't that be tripled? That's the way it usually works in D&D.

IDNHMBIFOM, but I'm guessing that Supreme PA doubles the extra damage from power attack, yes?

In this case, you get four points for each point of attack bonus. Double the two you would normally get. The two doubles = a triple rule is irrelevant because you are only doubling once.


glass.