D&D 4E The math behind power attack and why it needs to be redone in 4e

[Najo]

That's only part of the point.

It doesn't have to be about number crunching.

What if the rules for PA said "Apply a penalty to your attack roll and add half that amount to damage"?

Would you take it then because it was cool?

What if it only added 1/4 the amount of the attack penalty? Would you take it then? 1/5? 1/8? 1/10?

At some point, even the most die hard roleplayer says "Wow, this power attack feat sounds cool and my barbarian would really love it, but it's just such a crummy feat and would ruin his damage output. Using it would turn him into a wimp. I can't justify spending a valuable feat slot to take this miserable feat"

The problem with the actual mechanics of Power Attack is that it already does this. You don't have to actually play the game as a number cruncher. You don't have to sit at the game table this saturday with your calculus and your spreadsheets and try to "beat the system".

The simple fact is that you have to spend a precious feat slot. You could have taken something else, but you took Power Attack. And now, most of the time, it's giving you less damage improvement than you think it is. In fact, sometimes, it is actually making you do less damage because over time, you will certainly have some encounters where the total damage you do to the monsters is less with PA than it would have been, with the same rolls, without PA.

So, because the Power Attack mechanic is capable of reducing your damage output, or basically breaking even, it IS ALREADY an unwise choice for a feat.

At this point, the only justification for taking it, other than to gain access to Cleave, is if your defiinition of fun is "I will gladly take weak feats, even if they limit my character or make me weaker, just because they are fun and I like to roleplay that fun."

By that same logic, why not arm your barbarian with a dagger and roleplay him as believing it holds the spirit of his father. Make him afraid of all magic because magic killed his father, so he will never equip an item he knows to be magical. And he comes from a tribe that believes only sissies wear armor, so he prefers to fight in a loincloth. And let him use Power Attack at its maximum penalty/bonus because he "swings for the bleachers" every time. Oh, and when you build the character, use STR as a dump stat and load up his CHA and INT because he's a clever and friendly barbarian determined to outsmart all those mean old mages who killed his father.

I mean, if it is "just for fun" and your decisions are not based on doing what works and avoiding what doesn't work, then why not?

I myself am not a number cruncher. I play to have fun. I don't play to beat the system. But on the other hand, I do intend for my character to be good at what he does. He chooses his stats, class, skills, feats, spells, and equipment based on what will make him better at achieving his goals as an adventurer.

Power Attack, as designed, falls short of this expectation.

I love you people Now we are on track. Exactly for a third time!!!

 

[Najo]

Yes, I know. The sorts of people who are arguing against my assertion that power attack needs to be changed are the sorts of people who believe that MMO players are infesting their hobby and ruining it. I... apparently draw different conclusions from that fact than you do.

The problem with power attack (one of them at least) isn't that it leads to people doing calculus in the middle of the game. The problem with power attack is that if you want to get an actual benefit out of it, you have to use your gut instinct to estimate what a complex calculus problem would be necessary to know for certain. And a lot of people are a lot worse at this than they think.

So they have their fun, they power attack, they think they're kicking butt, and in fact they're making their character worse than if they'd just taken Weapon Focus.

There has got to be some way of making a power attack-like feat that doesn't have the long term effect of screwing over the people who take it. This is true even if the people being screwed over don't realize its happening.

Exactly in four dimensions now

This is what we need to figure out.

I love where we finally have things here. This is what I have been trying to drive home those whole thread and getting razzed on about. But it is all good.

My suggestion is find another way to penalize the player (give an attack of opportunity for example to the foe if a miss occurs) and remove the minus to hit. Then figure out a fair way to give bonus damage that scales well.

 

[Najo]

Your starting arguments are very weak. Aside from the point that taking the feat power attack does not apply a permanent change to your character, but rather, an activateable one - the fact that when used in the proper situations, people swear by it - makes a huge difference. It's not some "oh yawn" feat but rather one that requires poise and experience to use well and when used well, greatly strengthens the character using it.



Sure you don't but then you don't have to try to analyze it through spreadsheets either. More in a moment.



And your argument neglects one very important fact. Most D&D encounters are over in a few rounds, at best. This isn't some "over time" analysis. It's a "I activate power attack for 10 - I roll - I do XYZ Damage" "The enemy dies"

But also, I am going to get to another example that the anti-power attack camp is intentionally ignoring. Wait for it...



Taking improved grapple would be an unwise choice of a feat if you took it so you could grapple at every opportunity. But you don't. You grapple when the time seems right. Similarly, you PA when the time seems right. And usually, especially with some experience, you'll be right. And that means you use the feat to optimize your damage output. Which means you are using it right.



This is a very weak attempt at building a straw man argument. One can easily take the feat because it works. Because it does.



And some people do. Hell, most of this even has a prestige class straight out of BoED.



You've made number crunching statements here.



You're power gaming and complaining the feat doesn't work how you'd like it to.

Now, my example.

I have power gamed in the past. I have created fighter/weapon masters of the scythe. The scythe is a 2H weapon with an insane crit multiplier. The Weapon Master enhances both the range and the multiplier even further.

Every point of + to hit I took from that character resulted in crits ten percent of the time with +10 damage. If I knew I could take even say, 8 points, and still hit with the same chance of success, that is 80 extra damage.

Power Attack is for people who know how and when to use it. Because some people don't know how doesn't make it a bad feat. It's an exercise of use that requires seeing in action, not on paper.

Dracorat, don't take this the wrong way it is not personal.

I want you to go back and read all my posts because I don't want to waste time repeating myself to someone who barely read the thread. The game designers are the ones who brought this up, we have valid points and you are barely understanding the sitatution and then poking in here and taking down DM Blake.

It has been exhausting bring this to everyone's attention. I have been commited to it because I love the game and I want power attack to survive in some form. Please read the thread and understand the math before shooting down one post.

Now, improved grapple is a sub-optimal feat unless you build a character around it. Once you do, the character runs around trying to grope enemies all the time. Personally I think imrpoved grapple could use a little something to improve it. But it doesn't have the issues that Power Attack has, and you comparing them is wrong.

Power attack min/maxed characters with +40 to hit and a +15 damage bonus at level 20 still suck against CL 20 monsters. They only do well against lower level monsters and then the attack becomes broken, doing +80 damage with a two handed weapon as you point out.

I doubt you can build a level 20 character that is fun to play that can fight effectively with power attack against CL 20 monsters. Even if you manage to, I doubt you can build a second one. That is the point, improved grapple does what it says it does. Makes grappling easier to do and removes the threat of AoOp from the enemy. Power attack looks like it says hey, take a penalty to hit and deal more damage. But ironicly that penalty to hit makes you do less damage. Most players are failing to see this.

So, read my posts for a summary of everything. Then take up my challenege, build a level 20 character that uses power attack against cl 20 threats.

 

[Dracorat]

I read the entire thread before I posted. I simply chose what I felt was the most anti-PA post of the thread to respond to. I mean no offense to anyone, but I feel that my stance and arguments are clear.

In short, I feel you are severely misguided. That is not an attack on you, but rather, an observation based on my own experience.

I think it would be fair to say you feel I am similarly misguided.

In the end, I say PA is fine as is. Calculus or no.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Good job, Najo!

I think the easiest way to get the feel of PA is just to have a series of 1/encounter powers that deal extra damage and do something cool when you hit(stun, ignore DR, send the enemy flying, etc). Bo9S has a lot of powers like this, and I think they'll get the feel across quite well, IMO.

 

[Nifft]

In short, I feel you are severely misguided. That is not an attack on you

That is a statement about a person, not an argument. It is personal. It looks more like an attack than like an argument from where I'm standing.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Najo]

I read the entire thread before I posted. I simply chose what I felt was the most anti-PA post of the thread to respond to. I mean no offense to anyone, but I feel that my stance and arguments are clear.

In short, I feel you are severely misguided. That is not an attack on you, but rather, an observation based on my own experience.

I think it would be fair to say you feel I am similarly misguided.

In the end, I say PA is fine as is. Calculus or no.

I am not taking this as an attack. Regardles if you think PA is fine, the facts say otherwise and until you present an effecient build that uses power attack you are just sharing your personal opinions and no data.

The D&D Designers feel this way about the feat, as do most of the people in the thread. You argument needs to be supported by data and your experience so far is based on your feelings and not crunching numbers.

After reading the thread, if you see something we missed then show us. We welcome your input as long as it is constructive. Show us that power attack works fine or better than we think it does. If you need help with your math, I can help you. Just put an optimum power attack build together and then drop the character into theorical scenarios against appropaite CL threats and have them use power attack well. I can run the probablities for you and test your work.

 

[DM_Blake]

Your starting arguments are very weak. Aside from the point that taking the feat power attack does not apply a permanent change to your character, but rather, an activateable one - the fact that when used in the proper situations, people swear by it - makes a huge difference. It's not some "oh yawn" feat but rather one that requires poise and experience to use well and when used well, greatly strengthens the character using it.

Sure you don't but then you don't have to try to analyze it through spreadsheets either. More in a moment.

And your argument neglects one very important fact. Most D&D encounters are over in a few rounds, at best. This isn't some "over time" analysis. It's a "I activate power attack for 10 - I roll - I do XYZ Damage" "The enemy dies"

But also, I am going to get to another example that the anti-power attack camp is intentionally ignoring. Wait for it...

Taking improved grapple would be an unwise choice of a feat if you took it so you could grapple at every opportunity. But you don't. You grapple when the time seems right. Similarly, you PA when the time seems right. And usually, especially with some experience, you'll be right. And that means you use the feat to optimize your damage output. Which means you are using it right.

This is a very weak attempt at building a straw man argument. One can easily take the feat because it works. Because it does.

And some people do. Hell, most of this even has a prestige class straight out of BoED.

You've made number crunching statements here.

You're power gaming and complaining the feat doesn't work how you'd like it to.

Now, my example.

I have power gamed in the past. I have created fighter/weapon masters of the scythe. The scythe is a 2H weapon with an insane crit multiplier. The Weapon Master enhances both the range and the multiplier even further.

Every point of + to hit I took from that character resulted in crits ten percent of the time with +10 damage. If I knew I could take even say, 8 points, and still hit with the same chance of success, that is 80 extra damage.

Power Attack is for people who know how and when to use it. Because some people don't know how doesn't make it a bad feat. It's an exercise of use that requires seeing in action, not on paper.

What was weak? I presented a hypothetical version of Power Attack and destroyed it by increments to illustrate that at some point, some hypothetical version becomes a feat that nobody would take, not even roleplayers. Then I referred back to that by suggesting it is already at that point ass printed in the 3e PHB, although currently it is marginally useful enough that roleplayers might still take it for flavor or gish-build crators can base a careful build around it.

So what if the encounter is over in a few rounds? How many encounters where the Power Attacking melee guy misses more than he hits have to go by before he starts to question the benefit of his Power Attack feat?

This IS some "over time" analysis, because for every "I activate power attack for 10 - I roll - I do XYZ Damage - The enemy dies" there are "I activate power attack for 10 - I roll - I miss - The enemy lives for another round". No, I'm not implying it's a 1-for-1 rario, but the numbers presented here demonstrate the long-term over time effects of using PA to attack.

I think you misspoke about grapple. Taking improved grapple would be A WISE choice of a feat if you took it so you COULD grapple at every opportunity. But it would be an unwise choice if you took it for your 2-H sword specialist because you would rarely use it. Kind of exactly like Power Attack which you should only use in the rare cases (or at least uncommon cases) that it is beneficial.

You called me a number cruncher and a pwoer gamer. I'm neither, though I am more than willing to crunch the numbers for game design purposes. At the table, I don't crunch the numbers - I assume the designers have crunched the numbers for me and I play the game as presented. At least until I become aware of a flaw in it. Then, I might crunch some numbers to figure out a solution to fix the flaw.

As for power gaming, I have never built a character around a power concept. My current two characters are a rogue who primarily takes luck feats, and a warmage who was created to fill the artillery role in a group that was lacking in mages. His feat selection is metamagic and a couple feats in the Complete Arcane designed for war mages. Nothing fancy about either of them, both fill a role and have skills, feats, and gear suitable for that role.

I do, however, expect that when I add something to my character, I can depend on it to do what it seems to do. Power Attack is a deceptive feat. It seems to add to your damage output, and it's obvious it reduces your hit successes, but I never thought it actually reduced anyone's overall damage output until it was pointed out, and then supported with math.

Now I recognize it as a feat that doesn't deliver on its promise, unless someone builds a character around it, such as your scythe master. That character very likely got a damage increase because he was built for it. But more mainstream generalist melee characters won't be so lucky.

I would be all for an improvement to Power Attack to make it more viable for all characters who take it. I would also suggest capping the damage potential so that scythe master gish characters can't blow it out of proportion.

Or, failing that, 4e might want to put a disclaimer right into the feat to educate people who might take it that it should only be used in certain situations. Not hard and fast rules. Not spreadsheets. Just general notes like "Note: don't use Power Attack against well armored or otherwise hard to hit targets or you'll miss so much that you'll end up doing less damage instead of more".

Now, such a note is impractical. Fixing the feat makes more sense.

 

[Najo]

Good job, Najo!

I think the easiest way to get the feel of PA is just to have a series of 1/encounter powers that deal extra damage and do something cool when you hit(stun, ignore DR, send the enemy flying, etc). Bo9S has a lot of powers like this, and I think they'll get the feel across quite well, IMO.

Thats nice to hear May I ask what the grats are in order for?

How about this:

Power Attack
Pre: Str 13+
Benefit: You may use power attack as a standard action. To use power attack, make a single melee attack against a foe. If you hit, power attack gains bonus damage equal to the amount your attack roll is greater than your foe's current armor class. This bonus damage cannot be greater than your base attack bonus. If you miss, your foe may make an attack of opporunity against you. You may only use power attack once per round.

Stunning Blow
Pre: Str 13+, Power Attack
Benefit: When an enemy is successfully hit by your power attack, they must make a Fortitude test (DC 10 + damage dealt). If they fail, they are stunned for 1 round. In additon, your power attack gains +2 damage bonus.

Greater Power Attack
Pre: Str 13+, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When you perform a power attack and miss, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. There is no limit to the number of power attacks you may do in a round.

Crushing Blow
Pre: Str 13+ Power Attack
Benefit: When an enemy is successfuly hit by your power attack, any bonus damage caused ignores damage reduction. In addition, your power attack gains +2 damage bonus.

Driving Blow
Pre: Srt 13+, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: When an enemy is successfully hit by your power attack, you cause them to be pushed back. Resolve your power attack as normal, and then make an opposed strength check exactly as you would for a bull rush. You may add the bonus damage from power attack to your strength check. If your strength check is successful you push your opponent back 5 feet straight back. You may not push your opponent back further than 5 feet. in addition, your power attack gains +2 damage bonus.

 

[Ahglock]

...Except, of course, that a cleaner, smoother, and better-balanced rule is still at least non-negative for those people as well. A better Power Attack would work well for the casual gamers you're referencing as well as the number-crunchers. Moreover, it would potentially enable the casual gamers to keep better pace with the number-crunchers, and vice versa. I'm lucky not to have the calculus-users at my table either, but if I did, that would be a problem with Power Attack that doesn't need to be present.

Except of course, a non-scaling power attack isn't cleaner and smother its just less versatile. Make a better power attack that keeps scaling and you wont have the arguments, remove sliding scale and you get them, because that isn't better its worse.