The Mathematics of Survivability

[KarinsDad]

Ok, I haven't played high level 3E yet, but something has been bugging me for a while, so I wanted to know if people change the rules or hand out more protective magic items at higher levels in order to help their PCs survive.

If I look at a typical spell caster, I see that he will probably increase his main ability score several times by high level, resulting in a score of around 20 or so (or even higher).

So, DCs for spells without feats or magic will be in the range of 16 to 24.

If I assume that his magic (e.g. headband of intellect) and feats (e.g. spell focus, greater spell focus, possibly spell casting prodigy) will offset the magic (e.g. cloak of resistance) and feats (e.g. iron will) of most of his opponents (i.e. not monsters, just humanoids), then it would seem that enemy NPC spell casters would just roll all over PCs and parties would eventually get wiped out.

So, we have equivalent DCs in the range of 16 to 24 and equivalent saves in the range of 5 to 6 for worse category save (ignoring feats and magic which should be a wash for the most part).

In other words, a simple Hold Person which lasts for almost two minutes against a Fighter would require him to roll 12 or 13 or higher to save. That would mean that he would miss his save over half of the time.

A Finger of Death against a Wizard would require a 16 or 17 or higher to save.

So, a single ambush by a small group of lower level spell casters could easily take out a group of PCs if they just knew enough information about them that Fred is a combatant type, Barney is an arcane spell casters, etc. And, even if they did not know that, targeting the guys in armor with will and reflex saves, the guy in light armor with fort and will saves, the guy brandishing the holy symbol with reflex saves, and the guys with no armor with fort and reflex saves would be a no brainer.

Granted, the PCs might win 5 encounters like this in a row, but it only takes one encounter to wipe out the party. And, it seems like it would be easier to do than at mid or low level (with the possible exception of the Sleep spell at real low level).


Has anyone run into PC party wipe out problems with NPC groups the same or lower level at high level and if so, what do you do to correct the problem if anything?

 

[James McMurray]

This is all handled by the CR / EL system. For instance, if you have a party of 4 15th level characters and you ambush them with 4 12th level characters, you have set up an EL 16+) encounter. The '+' is from the ambush factor.

Also, NPC spellcasters don't usually have the resources that PC ones do.

Finally, high level PCs have the resources to escape an encounter that is going that poorly, via teleport, plane shift, flight, etc.

The party in my RttToH game has fought several spellcasters and there has only been one TPK. The only reason that happened was because the spellcaster had hdden her life and the party couldn't kill her.

 

[Ravellion]

Those spells are so integral to the system, that clerics should prepare "Remove Paralysis", "Death Wards" should be cast, and, very important, "dispel magic" and "heal" (for Harm).

You can usually solve the problem if you want to... My group however has no cleric or mage... they are going to have a rough ride when they hit level 12+ (they are 8 now)...

BTW your calculations are a bit off... It's slightly easier (less expensive) to raise saves as opposed to raising DCs. Cloaks of resistance add +1 to saves per plus, up to +5 IIRC, Headbands of intellect go up to +6, but only affect DC up to +3. Then you still have stuff like prayer, luckstones, ioun stones which give competence bonus to saves, racial save bonusses and Spell Resistance items. It works out, though it is precarious at times... but that keeps it fun. You can always Res the dead.

Rav

 

[sfgiants]

The above post about how NPC's usually don't have the resources of pc's is ridiculous. 3e is all about what is good for the pc's is good for the monsters/npc's. Tell me one reason why npc's wouldn't be as equipped as pc's? After all, we are talking about high lvl characters here... w.o. all the gadgets etc, it is harder to reach high lvl's. It could be argued that it is unlikely npc's could reach high lvl's w.o. the resources.

 

[James McMurray]

Tell me one reason why npc's wouldn't be as equipped as pc's?

Apart from the obvious answer: the DMG says so, there are others:

1. Realism: most NPCs do not gain all of their levels by going out and adventuring for treasure. They also generally have more things to spend their money on, such as keeps, followers, etc.
   
2. Balance: if ever NPC the party encounters (and defeats) has gear equivelent to a PC, the party's wealth levels will skyrocket out of control
   
3. Game Mechanics: The CR system is designed with the fact that NPCs have less gear in mind. If you give NPCs the gear of PCs, you have to increase their CR accordingly.
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   w.o. all the gadgets etc, it is harder to reach high lvl's

   
   That's true only if you assume that the only way to reach high levels is through fighting.
   
   A diplomat could reach high levels through overcoming great negotiational challenges. A King through ruling a hard to maintain realm. A wizard through finding deep and ancient lores. A fighter through travelling around the world and training under all of the great masters. Etc.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Also, any high level party should have defenses that they keep up. I would expect most everyone in a party with a level 10 or 11+ sorceror to have an Energy Buffer (Tome and Blood) up constantly. (It has a 24 hour duration so the sorceror can use his remaining high level slots to protect the party before going to bed--it's even more effective if the Sorceror can Extend Spell). That will help a lot when dealing with DC 25 (5 spell level+4 greater spell focus+6 effective 22 int) cones of cold and DC 23 fireballs. At very high levels, I would expect parties to receive a similar treatment with Mind Blank spells.

That will help somewhat--especially the mind blank since it will foil most of the tactics used to set up an ambush.

 

[sfgiants]

Before you start spewing out how "obvious" it is in the DMG you might want to provide a page number... Also, the idea that npc's have ways to gain xp w.o. fighting is not supported by the rules. The core rules only allow one way to gain xp, and that is defeating foes (there are optional rules, the key, is optional). The point of this all is: in general you would assume there arent millions of high level opponents floating around (even in FR this is supported), to assume that these limited few gained their experience from studying etc (or being diplomatic as you implied) is weak.

I know that npc's equipment value runs at about 60% of pc's of similar value, but npc's would in all probability focus their gear better than pc's...

Anyways, it seems we just disagree and I will leave it at that.

 

[James McMurray]

I cannot provide a page number because my DMG is not here. However, there are two seperate charts for wealth levels for PCs and NPCs. One of them is around page 90-something at the end of the NPC section. The other (for PCs) is in the Running a Campaign section.

Also, xp is awarded for overcoming challenges, no just for overcoming combat challenges. Traps are non combat challenges that are worth XP. Puxxles are given as an example of non-combat challenges that are worth XP.

Perhaps you might want to try pulling your head out of your ass long enough to actually read the book before you start spewing out crap about a subject you obviously do not understand.

 

[EOL]

I'm going to have to enter the fray on James' side...

Pg. 58 "NPC gear value" at 5th- 4,300; 10th- 16,000; 15th- 59,000; 20th- 220,000;

Pg. 43 "Starting Equipment for PC's above 1st level" at 5th-9,000; 10th-49,000; 15th- 200,000; 20th- 760,000

So yes the DMG does say so. And it's just about never at 60% and quickly gets to the point where NPC gear vs. recommended PC gear is around 30%

I also firmly agree with his other three reasons of Realism, Balance and Game Mechanics.

 

[EOL]

As to Karinsdad's original question, before I put my campaign on hiatus my PC's were 15th level, and I noticed that it was becoming increasingly difficult not to kill them. I came up with two ways of correcting the problem:

1- I instituted a fate die system (borrowing heavily from the Spycraft "action die" system) which in part allows the players to assist their saving throws in life and death situations.

2- I changed the rules on raise dead such that you only lost a level until you completed a geased quest for the god of the cleric who raised you.

Now of course these are both house rules and don't help out with the canonical problem of the danger of high level encounters, but I also observed one thing which might help. Lower level parties should probably fear death more, because their access to raise dead and especially ressurection is going to be very limited if not non-existant. High level parties on the other hand should have access to such spells within their own party, which means that death is suddenly more prevelant, but can also be more easily recovered from.

Also as was mentioned above certain spells, especially Death Ward become incredibly essential.

Depending on how deadly of a DM you want to be it make take some adjustment on your part from canon to reach the level of lethality you're looking for, but if you're players are good and creative you'll also find that they may be more difficult to kill then you first suspected.