The Misunderstood Paladin

[Umbran]

If you are asked a question and you don't answer that question, is that a lie?

It is what is termed a "lie of omission". In the example given, the paladin does not speak any untruths, but the guard is still bamboozled into thinking something that is not true.

Perhaps, "Can a paladin lie?" is not the question we should ask. Instead ask, "Can a paladin knowingly deceive another?"

 

[Silveras]

How did he lie?

If you are asked a question and you don't answer that question, is that a lie?

-wally

If you clearly say "I am not going to answer that," then you have not answered the question and you have not lied. If you give a misleading answer, that is a lie.

lie ( lī )

intransitive verb (past lied, past participle lied, present participle ly·ing, 3rd person present singular lies)

1. deliberately say something untrue: to say something that is not true in a conscious effort to deceive somebody
He lied about his age in order to get into the army.

2. be deceptive: to give a false impression
Don’t forget that appearances can lie.

noun (plural lies)

1. falsehood: a false statement made deliberately
She told me she wasn’t seeing anyone else, but that was a lie.

2. wrong impression: a false impression created deliberately
I’m beginning to feel that my whole life is a lie.

 

[Reynard]

One question I would suggest as important to this discussion:

Should the GM allow a player -- who is obviously pushing the "rules" to the breaking point so that he does not have to uphold the code in difficult circumstances -- to play a Paladin in the first place. I mean, a player like that is just trying to get over and really needs a smack down. let him trade in his cool paladin for some feats and just play a fighter. Or, if he really must have neat abilities, let him play a ranger.

 

[Silveras]

Which would explain why the average life expectancy of paladins is around 3 months, after they take up the mantle and sword.

The path of the Paladin is indeed difficult, and often leads to martyrdom. They like it that way, feeling a satisfaction in dying for their beliefs that few others can understand.

I assume all paladins come with a Phylacrity of Faithfulness, aka the Angry God-o-Meter, as bonus starting equipment then?

No, but the smart ones make an effort to obtain one quickly. Thanks for the reminder; I am equipping a higher-than-1st level Paladin for a PBeM right now... I should make that one of my selections.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Paladin: "No, I am a warrior of virtue and wielder of justice in the name of my god who has chosen me as one to defend the weak and seek to destroy evil."

In other words, he just told the evil town guard he's a paladin.

From a movie example, when the 'good guy' is being questioned/tortured to reveal whatever it is the bad guy wants, does he come right out and say? Nope. He refuses to answer, usually prompting more torture. He certainly isn't lying. It also would be proper for a paladin to endure pain on behalf of others (again, if you are playing that type of paladin).

If the villain applies red hot irons to your armpit, you are going to talk. I don't care if you're a paladin with Iron Will, HonorBound and Great Fortitude ... you are going to talk.

That's before the villain actually asks you any questions, by the way. Then he asks simple questions that he already knows the answer to, like your name, starts moving to more sensitive parts of your body. As the questions get harder... you get the idea. That paladin is going to spill! He won't even have time to think of a lie!

 

[shilsen]

It is what is termed a "lie of omission". In the example given, the paladin does not speak any untruths, but the guard is still bamboozled into thinking something that is not true.

Perhaps, "cana a paladin lie?" is not the question we should ask. Instead ask, "Can a paladin knowingly decive another?"

Sure they can. Which is why Undetectable Alignment is on the paladin's spell list.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Sure they can. Which is why Undetectable Alignment is on the paladin's spell list.

I was just about to point that out. Thank you.

 

[Silveras]

Sure they can. Which is why Undetectable Alignment is on the paladin's spell list.

There is a difference between preventing someone from obtaining information identifying your alignment (Undetectable Alignment) and giving them a deliberately false response (Misdirection, which is not on the Paladin's spell list).

 

[Umbran]

I was just about to point that out. Thank you.

Yes, and Silveras beat me to it. Undetectable Alignment does not deceive, as there's no bamboozle or fast talk, merely the withholding of data.

In essence, it's the difference between choosing to not answer a question when asked, and choosing to answer in such a way as to make them think you've said something else.

 

[Majere]

How about this for a radical interpretation:
Paladins are holy warriors, they fight in the name of their god etc etc..
So Why are paladins LG ?
Surely the paladin of a CN god would be CN ?
The paladins of the God of tricksters would be well used to manipulations of the truth.

The most playable take on a paladin for me is that a paladin is almost like a military extention of the church. If Clerics are the priests, then palains are the crusaders, but the important point is that their "code" will revolve about their god. Of course they might be a bit more zealous in their beliefs than a priest, but they needent be.
I really dont see why a paladin should be played any differently than a cleric, they both represent champions of a deity, and should act according to that. As for all this drivel about no lying, is the god of tricksters REALLY going to give two hoots if his paladins lie ?
I somehow doubt it very much.