Altamont Ravenard
Explorer
Dogbrain said:
Oh, so no one here thinks power is sexy? Not one person here thinks power is sexy?
Cleveland
The Misunderstood Paladin
- Thread starter Calico_Jack73
- Start date
Oh, so no one here thinks power is sexy? Not one person here thinks power is sexy?
Cleveland
I think everyone gets caught up in these threads on paladins and lying yes as part of there code I can see that paladins don't go around lying their heads off. That they will often refuse to answer rather than lie. Now that said sometimes you have to make an execption let's use the scenero about the evil kingdom and all guards asking are you a paladin.
If the paladin has a compelling reason to be in the city maybe a quest for his god and the only way to fulfill the quest is to lie than I can see him doing so. He may not like it he may need to pray for guidence afterwards he may even go on some quest that takes his guilt away.
But losing his paladin powers over it no way. And taking away a paladin's powers over it is just wrong. Paldins strive to live up to a higher code than anyone else I think that their god would understand that sometimes it is impossiable and doind so is far more evil than breaking the code.
My two cents.
If the paladin has a compelling reason to be in the city maybe a quest for his god and the only way to fulfill the quest is to lie than I can see him doing so. He may not like it he may need to pray for guidence afterwards he may even go on some quest that takes his guilt away.
But losing his paladin powers over it no way. And taking away a paladin's powers over it is just wrong. Paldins strive to live up to a higher code than anyone else I think that their god would understand that sometimes it is impossiable and doind so is far more evil than breaking the code.
My two cents.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
An interesting assertion--I'd probably guess fighter/bard myself. Anyone want to post how Testament statted him up?
Come to think of it, I'm not certain that there are any Old Testament characters who would be appropriately represented by the paladin class. I think that most of the historical/legendary inspirations for paladins are from the Christian era--Saint George (at least as portrayed in some legends), Roland, Galahad, Percival, etc.
And, as to the lying discussion, I think that the example of the paladin saying that he's not the kind of person the evil overlord ought to lock up is a perfect example of what paladins ought to do. Most people will allow that there is a difference between directly lying and giving statements that can be misinterpreted. And there's certainly a long ways between telling a lie and not telling everyone every conceivable detail about everything they ask about. (A lot of people will ask for information that is none of their business and different levels of detail and precision are appropriate for different relationships and situations). In any case, the paladin in that question isn't actually misleading anyone. While he knows that the evil overlord probably thinks that paladins should be locked up, the evil overlord ought not to be locking up paladins (indeed, he ought not to be an evil overlord to begin with).
In any event, that is actually the strategy that the people most opposed to lying have used where the whole truth will be disastrous. The people I know who used to smuggle bibles into the USSR, would reply that, no, they don't have any pornography or harmful materials in their car. They knew that the soviets thought bibles harmful but the Soviets were wrong and bibles aren't harmful so they weren't lying. Had they been asked if they had bibles in their vehicle, they had decided they'd say "yes." Similarly, the dutch ladies (whose names I've unfortunately forgotten) who were hiding Jews in their house would offer the Nazis tea or cookies when asked if they were hiding Jews and then would, later, when the subject came up again, say that they weren't doing anything bad and the Nazis would move on to the next house. (It worked for several years before they were caught and thrown into concentration camps).
Come to think of it, I'm not certain that there are any Old Testament characters who would be appropriately represented by the paladin class. I think that most of the historical/legendary inspirations for paladins are from the Christian era--Saint George (at least as portrayed in some legends), Roland, Galahad, Percival, etc.
WizarDru said:
And, as to the lying discussion, I think that the example of the paladin saying that he's not the kind of person the evil overlord ought to lock up is a perfect example of what paladins ought to do. Most people will allow that there is a difference between directly lying and giving statements that can be misinterpreted. And there's certainly a long ways between telling a lie and not telling everyone every conceivable detail about everything they ask about. (A lot of people will ask for information that is none of their business and different levels of detail and precision are appropriate for different relationships and situations). In any case, the paladin in that question isn't actually misleading anyone. While he knows that the evil overlord probably thinks that paladins should be locked up, the evil overlord ought not to be locking up paladins (indeed, he ought not to be an evil overlord to begin with).
In any event, that is actually the strategy that the people most opposed to lying have used where the whole truth will be disastrous. The people I know who used to smuggle bibles into the USSR, would reply that, no, they don't have any pornography or harmful materials in their car. They knew that the soviets thought bibles harmful but the Soviets were wrong and bibles aren't harmful so they weren't lying. Had they been asked if they had bibles in their vehicle, they had decided they'd say "yes." Similarly, the dutch ladies (whose names I've unfortunately forgotten) who were hiding Jews in their house would offer the Nazis tea or cookies when asked if they were hiding Jews and then would, later, when the subject came up again, say that they weren't doing anything bad and the Nazis would move on to the next house. (It worked for several years before they were caught and thrown into concentration camps).
WizarDru
Adventurer
True 'dat. Heck, the Aes Sedai of Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series are the perfect illustration of how to deceive, misdirect and avoid without actually lying. However, I personally think that a paladin can tell a lie under the right cirucmstances. This has been debated quite extensively here and other places. My personal view is that a paladin has some degree of lee-way. Being diplomatic at a dinner party about his lord's new surcoat is different from court intrigue. Lying to the city guard is far different from propping up straw men in armor on the castle walls, to scare the enemy away.Elder-Basilisk said:
Personally, if I were to put a PC in a situation where he had to intentionally put himself in a bad position with no way out, there'd better be a way out or solution a little later. Is sneaking into town more honest than lying by omission at the gate? Personally, I don't think so, but YMMV.
Krieg
First Post
Since we are using the dictionary as our source material...
Merriam-Webster:
1 : a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
2 : a leading champion of a cause
American Heritage Dictionary:
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
3. Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court
WordNet@Princeton University:
1. someone who fights for a cause [syn: champion, fighter, hero]
Encarta® World English Dictionary
1. medieval champion: a champion or hero, especially in medieval legend or history
2. champion of a cause: somebody known for championing a cause
3. one of Charlemagne’s companions: any one of the 12 legendary companions of Charlemagne
The Wordsmyth English Dictionary
1. one who fights heroically for a noble cause.
Infoplease Dictionary
1. any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.
Interesting that not all of the definitions of "Paladin" specify Knighthood as a prerequisite.
If you want to be really picky then by definition a Paladin would be a member of a royal court, but I don't see anyone arguing the necessity of that point.
Merriam-Webster:
1 : a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
2 : a leading champion of a cause
American Heritage Dictionary:
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
3. Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court
WordNet@Princeton University:
1. someone who fights for a cause [syn: champion, fighter, hero]
Encarta® World English Dictionary
1. medieval champion: a champion or hero, especially in medieval legend or history
2. champion of a cause: somebody known for championing a cause
3. one of Charlemagne’s companions: any one of the 12 legendary companions of Charlemagne
The Wordsmyth English Dictionary
1. one who fights heroically for a noble cause.
Infoplease Dictionary
1. any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.
Interesting that not all of the definitions of "Paladin" specify Knighthood as a prerequisite.
If you want to be really picky then by definition a Paladin would be a member of a royal court, but I don't see anyone arguing the necessity of that point.
Last edited:
Brother MacLaren
Explorer
Strategems depend on deception. With proper use of misinformation, you can either defeat enemies who would otherwise overwhelm you, or you can win without fighting. Both absolutely necessary for the success of Good. There is no way that any sane god who cares about Good would prohibit a paladin from using deception against the forces of Evil. This isn't saying "the ends always justify the means" - lying, like killing, is so often necessary to defeat demons, devils, tyrants, and the worst forces of evil that to forswear this particular means is to guarantee that you will fail when it counts. And a paladin's goal is not to serve his personal honor but to serve the cause of Good - that requires succeeding where possible.
A DM who imposed those restrictions on paladins and didn't have foes exploit those restrictions would be failing to play his NPCs plausibly.
Anybody read Wolves of the Calla (Dark Tower Book V)? Roland of Gilead is a paladin. Not perfect, not a saint, priority is L rather than G, but he's a servant of Order and the Light and the last best hope of Mid-World. And he lies his ass off to defeat a great evil. Good for him.
Majere - the way I look at it is that *clerics* are the crusading champions of a god or a cause - hence the good BAB, armor skills, HP, and saves - and paladins are exlcusively champions of Good. Good gets a little extra boost because evil is tricksy. Priests need their own class variant, perhaps Experts with the ability to ask favors on a case-by-case basis. Clerics are tough and have the skills for war. They aren't parish priests.
A DM who imposed those restrictions on paladins and didn't have foes exploit those restrictions would be failing to play his NPCs plausibly.
Anybody read Wolves of the Calla (Dark Tower Book V)? Roland of Gilead is a paladin. Not perfect, not a saint, priority is L rather than G, but he's a servant of Order and the Light and the last best hope of Mid-World. And he lies his ass off to defeat a great evil. Good for him.
Majere - the way I look at it is that *clerics* are the crusading champions of a god or a cause - hence the good BAB, armor skills, HP, and saves - and paladins are exlcusively champions of Good. Good gets a little extra boost because evil is tricksy. Priests need their own class variant, perhaps Experts with the ability to ask favors on a case-by-case basis. Clerics are tough and have the skills for war. They aren't parish priests.
Ukyo the undead
First Post
Silveras said:
Oohhh... so you can be a holy knight that hides your commitment to your god, but cant say "no", or try to confuse a foe...
Honestly, unless he paladin Pc is in a holy order´s party, he cant be played, if you use the rules with no changes.
Of course I use the rukes with changes, so the paladin´s player will not have a terrible time witna DM who only wants to show to the paladin how Real Life is.
If someone thinks a paladin should act as a proxy of his/her god, he should give him the power of one.
Brian Chalian
First Post
If someone comes to my table wanting to play a paladin who graduated from the Ben Kenobi School of Honesty, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As long as what the paladin says is true, false conclusions drawn by the listeners is not a code violation. (As evidence, consider Alhandra in THE CITY OF FIRE.)
And I concur with Brother MacLaren, clerics are the militant arm of the faith.
And I concur with Brother MacLaren, clerics are the militant arm of the faith.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Interesting phrase that--the Ben Kenobi school of honesty. Myself, I prefer the one Sepulchrave used in his story hour: economical with the truth.
Brian Chalian said:
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