Savage Wombat
Hero
Sounds to me like people would prefer a better "unarmed combat master" package, and then they can decide whether to give it to a fighter, thief or cleric.
D&D 5E The Monk - What is the monk to you and why?
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SageMinerve
Explorer
All the "orientalism" arguments that have been said regarding the Monk could be used, slightly modified, with the Paladin.
And honestly, similar arguments could be made for any class but the basic four. I might even include the thief/rogue archetype in the "might be removed from the game" category.
So removing the Monk from the game because of such arguments is kind of a fallacy, and one that is strongly tainted with their advocates's personal dislike of the class.
Now, if you don't like the monk and its flavor and don't want them in your game / campaign, well that's your choice.
And honestly, similar arguments could be made for any class but the basic four. I might even include the thief/rogue archetype in the "might be removed from the game" category.
So removing the Monk from the game because of such arguments is kind of a fallacy, and one that is strongly tainted with their advocates's personal dislike of the class.
Now, if you don't like the monk and its flavor and don't want them in your game / campaign, well that's your choice.
ppaladin123
Adventurer
I just like the idea of a guy who can punch a dragon to death incredible hulk style (and jump high and run fast and doge or shrug off damage without armor). I'd be happy for an unarmed brawler build for the fighter.
The monk class sometimes seems to fill that role. Other times it is basically a rogue with some ninjitsu-type magic (catching arrows, running up vertical surfaces, teleporting or becoming ethereal, etc.) thrown in. Sometimes he is a Dune-style psychic warrior (neutralize poisons with your mind! No need to breathe anymore). There are a few archtypes stuffed together, which is why the class ability list is typically a mess of seemingly random abilities.
The monk class sometimes seems to fill that role. Other times it is basically a rogue with some ninjitsu-type magic (catching arrows, running up vertical surfaces, teleporting or becoming ethereal, etc.) thrown in. Sometimes he is a Dune-style psychic warrior (neutralize poisons with your mind! No need to breathe anymore). There are a few archtypes stuffed together, which is why the class ability list is typically a mess of seemingly random abilities.
I also think there is too much focus on the unarmed attacks. The monks should include the use of all the monk weapons. Where's the old mystic who flips all over the street when thugs try to mug them and beats them with his cane.
Also that "dagger barrage attack" sounds like a monk move where he or she uses his or her enhanced sight and fast fingers to poke holes in a warband of orcs.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
As 1E would describe him, in a world where dwarves, elves, wizards, and what-all are NORMAL, the monk is the outsider, the fish-slightly-out-of-water. Caine from the tv series Kung Fu probably IS the prototype. He had a divided heritage and was raised in the distant lands of one half of his parentage, but now wanders the frontiers of the land of the other half of his parentage and that provides interest in the inherent struggles and conflicts. In D&D the monk is typically assumed to be from some far-off monastery and is now visiting other lands using his very different combat abilities and other skills in a continual demonstration of the idea that he IS an outsider.
The slightly wider view is that the monk is a warrior - but one whose physical abilities arise as much from mental as physical discipline. I think the view of the monk gets muddied when people want to have his powers derived from supernatural sources - the same spiritual power wielded by clerics or the magical power wielded by wizards. No, the monk is supposed to be a warrior - but a warrior who derives his abilities from MENTAL discipline as well as faces restrictions as a result of needing to maintain that discipline. You can make him a priest-type or magical-type if you like but frankly I thought the psionic orientation in terms of D&D rules fit best.
He doesn't have to encompass all-that-is-unarmed-combat. He simply fights unarmed as a rule because THAT keeps him in the odd-man-out role that he's supposed to be filling. He certainly doesn't have to be springing up as an Oriental-oriented class, just as the exotic outsider in a setting where what would otherwise be exotic has already been assigned to be normal.
The slightly wider view is that the monk is a warrior - but one whose physical abilities arise as much from mental as physical discipline. I think the view of the monk gets muddied when people want to have his powers derived from supernatural sources - the same spiritual power wielded by clerics or the magical power wielded by wizards. No, the monk is supposed to be a warrior - but a warrior who derives his abilities from MENTAL discipline as well as faces restrictions as a result of needing to maintain that discipline. You can make him a priest-type or magical-type if you like but frankly I thought the psionic orientation in terms of D&D rules fit best.
He doesn't have to encompass all-that-is-unarmed-combat. He simply fights unarmed as a rule because THAT keeps him in the odd-man-out role that he's supposed to be filling. He certainly doesn't have to be springing up as an Oriental-oriented class, just as the exotic outsider in a setting where what would otherwise be exotic has already been assigned to be normal.
Argyle King
Legend
I think there are a lot of different versions of the monk, so it's hard to say what makes sense without having more of an idea concerning what the D&D world in question views as reasonable.
In a vacuum, there are two very different styles of monk in my mind. On one hand, there is a mystic martial artist. On the other hand, one of the most famous "monks" from a fantasy story is Friar Tuck. In many of the Robin Hood stories, he is portrayed as being a skilled pugilist. He's no slouch with a staff either.
edit: Having grown up with the Street Fighter games, I think I'd also consider Dhalsim to be a monk. He's neither Asian nor European, so I think he provides an interesting view of a monk which is something else entirely.
In a vacuum, there are two very different styles of monk in my mind. On one hand, there is a mystic martial artist. On the other hand, one of the most famous "monks" from a fantasy story is Friar Tuck. In many of the Robin Hood stories, he is portrayed as being a skilled pugilist. He's no slouch with a staff either.
edit: Having grown up with the Street Fighter games, I think I'd also consider Dhalsim to be a monk. He's neither Asian nor European, so I think he provides an interesting view of a monk which is something else entirely.
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Celebrim
Legend
Well, it's worth noting that I removed the Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger and Druid from my game because I also felt that they carried to much cultural baggage to be a true base class. The concepts of those classes remain in the game, but as the more generic and versatile Fanatic, Champion, Hunter, and Shaman which are not specific to any single culture. You can still make a berserker northern barbarian by playing a Fanatic, but you could also play a knight Templar, a member of the King's elite bodyguard, a whirling dervish, or an insane cultist. You could make a Paladin character by playing a Champion, but also a batman style vigilante or a paragon of evil. And so forth.
So, I'm not being hypocritical here. You may be right about the Paladin being too specific to a setting, but that doesn't make the monk less problematic. If you really wanted to play a monk in my game I'd say, "Alright. Play a human or hobgoblin fighter. Spend your starting trait on Unusual Background (Martial Artist) to add Balance, Tumble, and Concentration to your class skill list, and start play with Superior Unarmed Strike and either Skill Focus (Unarmed Strike), Toughness, or Brawler. Focus on going up the unarmed combat tree - One Two Punch, Roundabout Kick, Deflect Arrows, etc. - with a particular eye on Lethal Weapon at 6th level and eventually getting Hard as Nails going up the toughness tree. The Riddle of Steel might also be an early option for you, as might Acrobatic Attack particularly once you get One Two Punch. Powerful Charge and Jump Kick also make a good combo. You might want to consider dipping for a level of Explorer to maximize your number of attacks, or you could go crazy and multiclass into Sorcerer for Arcane Strike, Enlarge Self, True Strike, and Body Weaponry. Alternately, dip cleric, abuse Interdisciplinary Student, and head for Persistent Spell."
I've actually had a player consider a build like that for a while before going with a more traditional. It's not something I fully encourage with the rules because honestly in the real world swords are better than fists and frankly I find the Kung Fu thing a bit hokey in a way I wouldn't find playing a sword or staff based martial artist. On the other hand, I have also had an NPC built along the Sorcerer/Martial Artist lines that was one of the campaigns mini-bosses, so it's not like I'm not cognizant of the style points. And heck, if I was a PC in my own game, I'd be strongly considering a Idreth staff based martial artist as my character, and the Idreth really are culturally prone to what humans would call monasticism.
TrippyHippy
Hero
Monks are a representation of asceticism and, as such, are like Clerics of a sort. However, they don't garner strength from an external connection to a god but from an internal dedication to a way of life. That dedication may still be inspired by an external god, possibly (like Christian Monks, for example), but they are not vessels of that god in the sense they have no power to perform rituals (spells).
I agree, both that they would have to be modified ("orientalism" is an attitude toward the other, whereas the paladin is not, in the relevant sense, an other) but that suitably modified they would apply.
For me, the monk archetype is established by Jet Li in Tai Chi Master, Chow Yun Fat and friends in Crouching Tiger, Michelle Yeoh in Wing Chun, etc. Unarmed or weapon attacks are equally effective (as in 4e and, at certain levels, 1st ed AD&D). Compared to the traditional D&D fighter we're talking better move and dodge defence, slightly more vulnerable to being hit, and appropriate mystic abilities (psionic, autohypnosis or what have you) like self-healing and resistance to charm and ESP. Stealth (at higher levels, invisibility) is an optional extra but you want to be careful about treading on the rogue's toes.
The D&D monk also has some extra quirks, namely, speak with animals and plants (I liked the 3E name for this - "Tongue of the Sun and Moon"), and the Quivering Palm as a capstone attack ability (though the actual mechanics have never been that wonderful).
As far as Mearls class groupings are concerned the monk is a warrior who can also do limited duty as a rogue-ish/ranger-ish scout. Framing the monk as a rogue first I think will undermine the fighting ability too much (similarly if framed as a priest) and the monk doesn't have the spells to buff the party and/or influence antagonists to compare to a priest or bard. (If a fighting monk turns out to just be better than the rogue, that would be evidence that the rogue needs a bit more oomph, which is not inconceivable to me.)
I have to concur with the bulk of what Celebrim wrote. That said, there's nothing wrong with some goofy nods to Orientalism - as long as it doesn't irradiate a ton of fertile design space like the Monk-as-class paradigm has for the last three decades. Monk is a Background - coming from a monastery. That's it. Maybe they taught Kung Fu there. Maybe they illuminated manuscripts. That's a setting / background thing.
The combat / stunt abilities of the monk are Martial Arts. Those same Martial Arts from the Orentalism influence were taught to (and taught by) people who were not monks. Many dojo and family traditions passed on martial arts to people from many different walks of life.
Someone mentioned martial artists from video game. Almost none of the signature icons of that genre are monks. They learned from teachers who most often learned from family members and never set foot inside a monastery.
So I just wish the Monk would stop poisoning the well of Martial Arts in D&D. You want to be Caine, go on. Here's the Martial Artist class, Aesthetic Tradition, and the Monk or Pilgrim background. Go nuts. Just don't stop Larry over here from playing his Dwarven Bear Wrestler or block out Joe's drunken boxer
Marty Lund
The combat / stunt abilities of the monk are Martial Arts. Those same Martial Arts from the Orentalism influence were taught to (and taught by) people who were not monks. Many dojo and family traditions passed on martial arts to people from many different walks of life.
Someone mentioned martial artists from video game. Almost none of the signature icons of that genre are monks. They learned from teachers who most often learned from family members and never set foot inside a monastery.
So I just wish the Monk would stop poisoning the well of Martial Arts in D&D. You want to be Caine, go on. Here's the Martial Artist class, Aesthetic Tradition, and the Monk or Pilgrim background. Go nuts. Just don't stop Larry over here from playing his Dwarven Bear Wrestler or block out Joe's drunken boxer
Marty Lund
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